Posts by The Postman

I can't believe we're still actually arguing this crackpot crap.

Hooray, more bullshit!

Quote from RD

Remember the cold war? None of those countries wanted to commit suicide, but it happened anyway.

Wait, what? Are you saying that the Cold War boiled over? Where was I during the nuclear holocaust?

Quote from RD

damn i thought i had defeated you

Ho ho ho RD, not at all

I'm not done yet, but midterms for my international poli-sci class have come up, so I'm on hiatus until Wednesday at least. Just FYI.

hahahaha this is freakin' cool. Great work!

Quote from RD

My point to Posty exactly. There is no need to apologise for speaking the truth.

Quote

2) The cartoons were not a childish lash at the ME. They are the truth. They are reactions to REAL events where muslims with bombs in their hats blew us up screaming for their god. You thinking its just us being childish boils down to you having ignored my point of how dangerous it is here to criticise Islam. Its the truth, and i posted pictures to prove my point, pictures of angry crowds in European streets threatening to behead those who insult Islam, which you deleted. Even after you saw them you didnt believe it. You missed the singularity of the black hole and called me childish for pointing it out.

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it. However, the re-printings of the article in the face of largely peaceful protest (with a few extremists thrown in) was just antagonistic and yes, childish. The discourse offered by them was two dimensional (no pun intended), very offensive to the entire religion and not a good way of getting an intelligent argument going. I think we can at least agree that the cartoon was that.

Quote

Your explanation of how to fix it is proven false, because we ALREADY DID IT IN EUROPE FOR YEARS.

My solution of getting their people to realize that they need to rise up and better themselves is proven false? Oh my RD you're going to have to back that one up with some major longterm statistics and articles about the Middle East and her peoples, because you see, I was talking about the Middle East, not Europe. Re-read my post again.

Quote

Hopefully you understand that because there is individual freedom that we have 0 control over what ppl draw, which means there will be riots every week depending on some imam not being too lazy to take the drawings to the ME and twist its context.

Fair enough.

Quote

You also hopefully listened to my earlier point that printing it has NOTHING to do with the problem, because if we hadnt printed it they would riot because it is on a Danish website.

To be honest I believe that the protests would've been much less on the whole if it was website oriented. Largely because of a large-scale lack of access to the internet that the ME has.

Quote

I am not going to read your posts again, but what i will do for you, is suggest you read mine again, or better, neotics In order to make muslims aware that they have made a mistake and to actually change something instead of pretending theres no problem, you have to make them aware of the black hole in their reasoning. In this case, the black hole is in Islam.

My argument has been and continues to be that there are better and more mature levels of argument and discourse than stupid cartoons. Your refusal to re-read that nice long post I made is just silly, and the request to re-read your posts after suggesting that is just insulting.

Quote from rockdude86

allright...

first thing: Denmark is not responsible for those people rioting, they are responsible for that themselves. AND if there would be someone to blame for this it would be the ones who made the cartoons, not a whole country.

Agreed. Excuse my blanket statement. I should've clarified that.

Quote from rockdude86

second thing: yes their reasoning is flawed. fix it? no, why? they have to "fix" that themselves. as simple as that. as long as they dont realise they are being wrong they wont change, theres nothing to do about that.

This is what I already wrote.

Quote from rockdude86

third thing: one thing here you should understand is that A: people are allowed to feel insulted by something like this on that i have to agree with you BUT and here comes B: a "reasonable" person would laugh about a "joke" like this and think: hey its just someone elses opinion what the hell do i care. think about this... then come back. thank you.

It's something they feel very strongly about, though. That's the difference. Read my long diatribe up there, I think I cover a little of this too.

Quote from RD

Then look at this objectively and tell me who has to apologise for the riots.

Denmark. The spark that ignited all this lies at their fault. However now I think the riots will probably cease due to the whole mosque explosion in Iraq. I think that'll grab some attention.

Quote from RD

What you did was say over and over again why they are rioting, and that we are responsible. You explained everything except why their reasoning is flawed. Sometimes you wrote that that they are completely wrong, but you never explained why. If you skip that, it is the definition of justifying. Extremists recruit ppl by explaining the conflict while at the basis of their reasoning is a black hole.You prefer to explain how understandable it all is for a reason, and i wonder what it is.

My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread.

Quote from RD

Do you know why they were wrong to even get angry at us about the drawings? I doubt it, you probably disagree with it because it is so understandable.

Wait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted?

Quote from Scraps

Is that all you've got?

Please.

Flamewar over. Back to the topic at hand. That goes for both Killer and Scraps.

Quote from RD

Page one of the old thread that was locked.

Then reference the proper thread next time.

Quote from RD

You know the definition of justified? Having a valid reason.

The people doing it thought it was justified. Those who can look at it objectively know that it wasn't. That's the difference.

Quote from RD

A man can murder his wife because she cheated. She is still not responsible.

She's responsible for her own actions, not her husband's. However she must've known he'd respond quite negatively if he found out. There are more levels to this than simple black and white reasoning that you seem to be fond of.

Quote from RD

There was no need for you to explain anything. On page one of this entire debate i wrote: "I dont think anybody on here is surprised they are offended so lets just get that over with."

But you spend the next 20 pages explaining it.

No you didn't. I just went and rechecked. You didn't. Please point me out where you said this in any way shape or form on page one.

Quote from RD

Imagine this: 911 just happened, and i am writing 20 pages of explaining why they did it, to make you realise that you should have been more careful in 1985, you should have known better, you got your ass kicked and you are responsible.Am i really merely explaining it and not talking it right? I used your exact words.

You're explaining it and yes, there were reasons for 9/11. The action was horrible, and not at all justified, but there was a pathos for it happening. It didn't spawn in a void. That being said, 9/11 was not justified, just as these riots and threats of death are not justified.

Quote from RD

You have drawings about 911, paintings, pictures, probably some with the word ALLAH on it. The only reason you got away with that is because you were so completely screwed over on 911 and you payed them back, they really are too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you didnt get away with it. It will happen again and again.They screamed Allah on those planes, they screamed Allah in the attacks here. They used Allah and their prophet. There is a toon of a bomb and the prophet. Its not a childish attack, it is portraying how extremists use Islam. It is as childish as your 911 drawings with a cartoon bubble containing ALLAH AKBAR.

That's the difference between posting on a small insular forums website...

Quote from RD

This isnt us walking in a redneck bar and getting beaten up. This is a regular bar that they storm into and kill us, while we are drawing toons. Toons that they would never have seen if it wasnt for that imam.

...and printing a cartoon in a largely read print publication.

happykleinday~

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast ... index.html

Quote

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- A group of men dressed like Iraqi police commandos set off explosives at the al Askariya "Golden Mosque" in Samarra on Wednesday morning, heavily damaging the Shiite holy site, Iraqi government officials and the U.S. military said.Photographs from the scene showed little evidence of the golden dome that once towered above the mosque. Mounds of debris littered the area.

The attack, which occurred at 7 a.m. in Salaheddin province, home to a large Sunni Arab population, triggered other attacks, protests across the country and fears of more sectarian violence between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari urged Iraqis to stay unified, saying the attack was an effort to incite sectarian violence. In a taped address on al Iraqiya TV, he called on all Iraqi political parties to condemn the mosque attack and asked Sunni and Shiite Iraqis to demonstrate in Samarra, about 70 miles (110 kilometers) northwest of Baghdad.

He also declared a three-day period of mourning and ordered the Ministries of Defense and of Housing and Reconstruction to assess damage and begin quickly the reconstruction of the shrine.

Foreign fighters were likely responsible, and the attack bore the hallmarks of al Qaeda in Iraq, Iraqi National Security Adviser Mowaffaq al-Rubaie said.

"They are really testing the patience of the Iraqi people," he said, calling on Muslims around the world to condemn "this act of terrorism."

Ten people -- all dressed as Iraqi police commandos -- have been arrested, al-Rubaie said.

"This is a day of great tragedy for all Iraqis," said Hussein al-Shihristani, deputy speaker of the National Assembly.

"The crime that has taken place in Samarra is against Iraq, is against one of the holiest places in the country and the whole population is extremely hurt by what they have heard."

The Sunni Iraqi Islamic Party called the attack "an extreme crime" and called for an investigation into who was responsible. Later, its office in Baghdad and two local Sunni mosques were attacked, police said.

Gunmen stormed the Iraqi Islamic Party's office, evacuated its employees and torched the place. The main entrance to Al Hamza mosque, which escaped damage, came under machine-gun fire and was burned. A rocket-propelled grenade caused damage to the entrance of the Mustafa mosque.

Security was being beefed up around all mosques in Baghdad, police said.

Following noon prayers, 4,000 demonstrators in Baghdad walked from the office of Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr toward a nearby mosque, a spokesman for his office said. By the time the march ended, the number of people had swelled to 10,000, the spokesperson said. It was one of several protests in Baghdad neighborhoods, Iraqi Emergency Police said.

Al-Sadr cut short a visit to Lebanon and was returning to Iraq, where he was planning to make a televised statement.

The Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani has calling for a week of mourning, said Hamed al-Khafaf, a spokesman for the powerful Shiite cleric.

Al-Sistani is calling for all businesses to close in protest for three days and for all Shiite and Sunni Iraqis to express themselves in peaceful protest, not with violence, al-Khafaf said.

In Samarra, several hundred people gathered at the mosque and at the mayor's office, denouncing the Iraqi government and the U.S. military, authorities said.

Thousands of protesters also took to the streets in Najaf, Iraqi Emergency Police said.

The al Askariya Golden Mosque is sacred to Shiites, because they believe Imam al Mehdi, the 12th and final awaited imam, will appear at the mosque to bring them salvation.

He is the son of Imam Hasan al Askari, the 11th imam, buried in the shrine. His grandfather, the 10th imam, is also buried there.

Al Mehdi is said to have disappeared in the eighth century during the funeral of his father and is believed by Shiites to have been withdrawn by God from the eyes of the people. They are waiting for him to reappear as their leader, believing the event will take place in Samarra.

Display More

Shiites vs Sunnis, round II, fight! Hey at least the US presence in Iraq is stablizing that region.

The destruction of ancient structures is just heartbreaking. Especially such magnificent buildings as the Askari "golden mosque." This is only going to get worse before it gets any better. The tension between Sunni and Shiite Muslims was already pretty thick, and this would be pretty much like Russia nuking New York to get the cold war hot.

http://www.tampabays10.com/war/war_arti ... ryid=26069

Quote

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP)—Gunmen in Iraq have killed a Sunni cleric in Baghdad as protests erupted following an explosion at a famous Shiite shrine.The Iraqi Army says the cleric was sprayed with bullets as he entered a mosque.

Shiite leaders have been calling for calm following an early morning attack at a shrine in Samarra. But a leading Sunni politician says militants have attacked 29 Sunni mosques nationwide. He fears the situation could get "out of control."

No one has claimed responsibility for the Samarra attack, which heavily damaged the mosque's golden dome. But investigators think Sunni extremist groups could be to blame.

The government says "several suspects" have been detained.

Police think some people might be buried under the debris, but no casualties have been confirmed.

Retaliations have begun. A cleric has just been murdered.

My final argument is basically this. The problem in the Middle East trascends race or religion. It's a problem that effects all failed states that have high populations of impoverished, desperate, and poorly educated people. Religion, as a whole, doesn't help these people in the way that it helps people in the developed nations. Instead it acts like a catalyst in finding scapegoats and goading on people with an unrealistic zeal.

So how do we fix this problem? For one these nations need to have better infrastructure. That means power, water, gas, and sewage available to people in these countries. The problems faced by most of these people stem from the frustration of a subsistance or hard life. Needing an outlet to vent those angers on can be sated by making sure through slow methodical change of infrastructure their lives become more comfortable. Comfortable people are happy people. After this seemingly inconsequential change is made and maintained only then can these people begin to modernize and globalize their economies and begin to soothe the extremist masses by giving them no pool of angry peasants to wield like an axe.

This however, comes to a conundrum. The change must occur inside the countries themselves and also requires a secular government more free from corruption. The change must be put forth by the people in that country and not from western nations(although non-governmental bodies couldn't hurt to help aid in other areas before and during the change). This is a slow and deliberate process that can't be forced from outside and will probably not be reached in our lifetimes. There are already success stories though. The UAE and Turkey are both excellent examples of largely Islamic nations that have made incredible strides to modernize and globalize their economies and peoples. There is hope for change out there, but it will be slow in coming.

Again, this isn't a problem with Islam itself, nor Islamics in general. It is a problem faced by all impoverished, desperate people in need of a reason why things are so bad. Only by slow, deliberate, internal change can they remedy themselves in the longterm.

The Cartoon

My final thought on this matter is essentially this. My arguments this entire time have been an explanation of the situation, not a defense of the Muslim reaction nor ills commited by the Islamic extremists in the past. It's been a critical look at how one insulting act has been spun as a free speech rallying cry of the west, when in truth it had nothing to do with that. It existed because free speech exists, but it was not celebrating that right in and of itself. It was deliberately and insensitively attacking Islam as a whole instead of the extremists who stain its reputation.

However, the EU and the nations involved in the further spread of this cartoon and its legacy have to take some responsibility for their actions. These things don't happen in a void. Much in the same way that if I wore an anti-Bush teeshirt into a Mesquite, Texas country-western bar I'd probably get my ass handed to me. That's not to say that all people who supported Bush are violent hicks, but it does say that my attempt at expression certainly wasn't appreciated, regardless of how much free speech I used in wearing that shirt. I'm responsible for that action though. I made the decision, I offended them, and I got my ass beat for stirring the pot.

That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.

Quote from neotic

The rest of the world has to tip toe around broken glass for Islam and cater to it at every possible chance.

No, hardly. However it can't be surprised if people get angry and shit happens because of their actions. That's my argument here.

Quote from neotic

The double standard here is the fact that the rest of the world is suppose to be tolerant of the intolerant.

That's essentially the double-edged sword of freedom of speech. You have everyone's voices, not just the ones you like.

Quote from neotic

Doing so just solidifies their intolerance and ignorance. To crack the extremes of this ideology, well, have to crack some eggs to make an omelet – maybe they’ll recognize their unrealistic expectations and change for the better.

There has to be a more constructive way than inciting riots via insulting cartoons.

Quote from neotic

Just because Catholics or New Zealanders are more tolerant means blasphemy is at least permissible?

It's not permissable, that's the thing. What I'm saying here is that there's a reason why it's happening, not a reasonable reason. Also, Catholics weren't always so tolerant. The Crusades, the Inquisition, every witch hunt ever done. Religions mellow over time.

Quote from neotic

Or that since Muslims are less tolerant that rioting is justified or at least permissible? If you allow the less tolerant people to remain less tolerant because they are less tolerant then the rest of the world better start learning Arabic because appeasement is the only course if action within that mind set. We’d hate to upset the intolerant and ignorant because they are.

Hardly. You just have to educate the populace against that form of extremism. Defeating intolerance takes education, not stupid cartoons. That cartoon was just a childish jab and every reprint of it only stoked the fire.

Quote from neotic

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4735216.stmPretty much the identical argument Postman has been using to justify the rioting over the Muhammad cartoons, isn’t it? Of course, the only difference here is that these Catholics somehow managed to avoid rioting, burning cars, firebombing embassies, and killing each other. Funny how that works, isn’t it?

People in New Zealand are also a fair bit better off and better educated than your average Middle Easterner.

Quote from RD

Ill post it later because i have to go to sleep now. To get up damn early.

Cool, waiting on that if you can find it.

Quote from RD

Umm what, Do you live here? Thats not why they wear shirts or reprint it. When your fellow countrymen are SENTENCED TO DEATH you back them up.

That's sure as hell what it looked like from across the pond and I can guarantee that the folks in the ME and in your own countries didn't think it was all that funny or noble either.

Quote from RD

Like i said before we have more muslims living here than you have in all your states combined. Nobody in Europe is doing any violence against muslims, we dont hate them, were not rioting...

That's all well and good, but you still antagonized them.

Quote from RD

...were not xenophobes and were not racist, we dont go out to ridicule them.

Cartoon?

Quote from RD

It does actually have everything to do with free speech.

Only in that they can do it because free speech exists, not because of how much they LOVE free speech. That's a crucial difference here.

Quote from RD

Like i also said before, ppl have already been killed over criticising Islam in Europe, many times. Even more ppl have been sentenced to death. It has evrything to do with freedom that they back up and condemn their brothers who go wild.

Then punish those that do those horrible acts and stop painting yourselves as innocent and like this happened in a void without a cause.

Quote from RD

They protested peacefully, threatening us with another 911, 77 and madrid, openly threatening to behead all that insult Islam. This again has everything to do with freedom of speech and press in Europe. I dont see how anything could have more to do with it.

Don't they have a freedom to speak?

Quote from RD

Denmark apologized before any other European paper reprinted the toons.

Give me a link that proves me wrong and I'll rescind that point.

Quote from RD

Europe didnt reprint them to insult muslims,

Bullshit. I suppose the wearing of shirts and the rampant reprintings was this oh-so-noble freedom of speech thing and not some kind of simmering racial/religious tension bubbling to the surface. Come off it.

Quote from RD

I could as well say you invaded Iraq to wipe out Islam.

Bullshit and that has nothing to do with this discussion, stay on task and stop trolling.

Quote from RD

We did it because it is the pinnacle of free speech to be able to say what you want without getting killed.

This had about as much to do with free speech as American white power idiots stomping through the streets. They're doing it because they know it gets a rise out of people and pisses people off. They know they're protected by the free speech acts here, but that's not why they're doing it.

Quote from RD

Obviously it is no longer possible in Europe because of extremists, and this basically proves the whole toon issue to be true and justified. Why the hell do we have to change our laws because the Middle East wants it.

The people in the EU protested peacefully. The people in the ME are the ones rioting.

Quote from RD

The Danish make bad picture.The Muslims mad at picture.

The Muslims: death to all Danish

The EU make more picture.

The Muslims get more mad.

The EU goes "uh oh!"

The Danish apologize.

The Muslims riot.

The Muslims accidentally kill each other and innocents in the riots.

RD says "lol stupid violent beasts lol"

Posty says: what did you expect? You made your bed, now lay in it.

Display More

Fixed.

Quote from RD

Why do you even explain it to me, you should be condemning their madness but instead you attack those who print cartoons

JESUS. H. FUCKING. CHRIST. RD. Seriously? I can't even fathom this right now. I've spelled it out in the clearest of simplistic language. The EU and everyone else that fanned the flames of this shit - the cartoon shit, not 9/11, not the beheadings, not anything else you KEEP BRINGING UP THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS - can't be angry at the ME for getting angry at them for printing those cartoons and basically pointing and laughing while they got aggitated. They only coughed forth a half-hearted apology when the int'l community chastised them for being the assholes they were in the first place.

Quote from RD

They did apologize. For insulting the muslims, not for printing it.The muslims also wanted the government to apologize, but it couldnt because it has nothing to do with the media

They also apologized well after shit had already hit the fan and many other nations were reprinting them for the sole purpose of egging the ME on. After that point Denmark (and later the paper itself) apologizing was so many empty gestures all too late.