game devs you really hate!

    Quote from zaphod

    does it matter at all that Valve is still the only company out there that seems to care at all about supporting the mod and user content community? What other company out there is supporting much of anything besides the ability to make a few deathmatch maps if that? ( maybe microsoft counts now w/ XNA & creators club? )The assertion that Valve "buys up" mod teams and community talent becuase they are lazy just makes my jaw drop. How many opportunities have been provided for becuase of Valve's embracing modding? How many people on these forums right now are only working in the industry becuase of resources and opportunities that were provided by Valve? I know that I am one, and I could name you quite a few others right off the top of my head. Buying up talent? Valve is one of the only companies out there that makes it a policy to embrace and lift up the self-motivated modders and developers and give them a chance to do it for a living if they choose. How is that bad for ANYBODY? Fucking bastards found some talented students and gave them the chance to make a great game called portal, boy we can see how THAT turned out. It would have been much better if they had all gotten hired by random studios and put on work detail churning out the same rehashed shit that has been flowing like oil from the ground instead of being given the chance to construct their own personal vision of a game.

    I exempted Portal in my condemnation of Orange Box. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great they give the modding community a chance to get noticed on a higher level, but considering the amount of talent at Valve right now, it's disappointing that there hasn't been that "big new game" to show off that talent. It manifests itself in incremental updates which is ok I guess because they're consistently polished but Valve could do something greater.

    Quote from Bl1tz

    I exempted Portal in my condemnation of Orange Box. Don't get me wrong, I think it's great they give the modding community a chance to get noticed on a higher level, but considering the amount of talent at Valve right now, it's disappointing that there hasn't been that "big new game" to show off that talent. It manifests itself in incremental updates which is ok I guess because they're consistently polished but Valve could do something greater.

    thats a pretty lofty assumption.

    "Ok guys, I know that you are the best in the industry in a lot of areas - your work is critically acclaimed and shapes the face of games . . . but c'mon . . . lets pick up the pace guys . . . you guys aren't cutting it!"

    I wish more companies put out more smaller polished focused projects. There are enough "huge" and "great" games out there.

    Quote from zaphod

    does it matter at all that Valve is still the only company out there that seems to care at all about supporting the mod and user content community? What other company out there is supporting much of anything besides the ability to make a few deathmatch maps if that? ( maybe microsoft counts now w/ XNA & creators club? )The assertion that Valve "buys up" mod teams and community talent becuase they are lazy just makes my jaw drop. How many opportunities have been provided for becuase of Valve's embracing modding? How many people on these forums right now are only working in the industry becuase of resources and opportunities that were provided by Valve? I know that I am one, and I could name you quite a few others right off the top of my head. Buying up talent? Valve is one of the only companies out there that makes it a policy to embrace and lift up the self-motivated modders and developers and give them a chance to do it for a living if they choose. How is that bad for ANYBODY? Fucking bastards found some talented students and gave them the chance to make a great game called portal, boy we can see how THAT turned out. It would have been much better if they had all gotten hired by random studios and put on work detail churning out the same rehashed shit that has been flowing like oil from the ground instead of being given the chance to construct their own personal vision of a game.

    I think that sometimes modders have a hard time seeing outside the mod developer bubble. Inside the bubble, things like the state of the tools, drama between developers, and the policies Valve choose are big issues. But if you stand outside the bubble and roam around on the larger game development plain, you start to see that it is still the largest and highest bubble if it's type floating around out there, and you start to notice that it's pretty unique.

    Valve is still putting that chance out there to amateur developers. You can argue about how they are managing and offering that chance, but the fact remains that they are the only major player out there offering that chance, or that even thinks that it's a valuable thing to do.

    If you think Valve's tools are bad, you should probably go try some others or try out some "from scratch" game engines. I think there would be a lot of stuff you run into that you had taken for granted with the source engine, buggy and annoying as it may be.

    You've completely missed the point Zaphod, go back and read the other posts made by people here before drawing such bold conclusions based on one comment. Valve's amazing support and tools are what prompted this thread in the first place.

    Myself and many others here are not just from the modding community but are also working within the industry itself. In fact I believe people who can look from both sides of the 'bubble' as you describe it, should have a much more educated and less biased point of view. Simply because you are a developer does not mean you can turn around and tell people "you're not a dev, you dont know what you're talking about!" (maybe a wrong assumption of your post, but that's how I percieved it).

    You should never shrug off the opinions of the community, especially ones that helped to build a business upon like Valve and Epic. After all, the consumers are the ones that put money into gamedev's paycheques.

    Oh and...

    Quote

    How many opportunities have been provided for becuase of Valve's embracing modding? How many people on these forums right now are only working in the industry becuase of resources and opportunities that were provided by Valve?

    Giving someone tools doesnt make them an artist or give them a free pass into the gaming industry. I dont even know where to begin with this statement and to be honest I feel some might be a little insulted by the insinuation that Valve got themt o where they are today...

    Again, I dont hate Valve, Epic, Id etc, I am just dissapointed by there declining interest in the modding community.

    Quote from robert.briscoe

    You've completely missed the point Zaphod, go back and read the other posts made by people here before drawing such bold conclusions based on one comment. Valve's amazing support and tools are what prompted this thread in the first place.

    Myself and many others here are not just from the modding community but are also working within the industry itself. In fact I believe people who can look from both sides of the 'bubble' as you describe it, should have a much more educated and less biased point of view. Simply because you are a developer does not mean you can turn around and tell people "you're not a dev, you dont know what you're talking about!" (maybe a wrong assumption of your post, but that's how I percieved it).

    You should never shrug off the opinions of the community, especially ones that helped to build a business upon like Valve and Epic. After all, the consumers are the ones that put money into gamedev's paycheques.

    My post was not meant to belittle anybody or treat anyone here like they are not developers. I assume everyone here is a developer, since there wouldn't be much point in being here if you were not. I would never shrug off the opinions of the people you mention, mostly becuase I AM one of those people you describe. I am just voicing my own opinion, on a subject I am very passionate about. My "bubble" comments were just meant to make the point that the mod world IS a very passionate and close-knit community, ( which I know first hand ) and it's easy to get caught up in details that might seem trivial when you step back and look at the entire state of things.

    I know I am repeating things that have already been said, I just mostly wanted to profess my take on things becuase I thought the idea that Valve does nothing but buy up mod teams to make things for them absolutely laughable.

    Quote from robert.briscoe

    Oh and...

    Giving someone tools doesnt make them an artist or give them a free pass into the gaming industry. I dont even know where to begin with this statement and to be honest I feel some might be a little insulted by the insinuation that Valve got themt o where they are today...

    Again, I dont hate Valve, Epic, Id etc, I am just dissapointed by there declining interest in the modding community.

    what? why would you feel insulted. I never said that Valve awarded them talent they didn't have.

    I'm asserting that the tools Valve provided directly inspired a lot of people here to get into game development, and also that projects done with Valve provided tools directly led to a lot of people around here getting hired professionally.

    Quote from kleinluka

    I can only say, if it wasn't for Valve and Half-Life I would be working at McDonald's right now.Thank you Valve!

    You work at GRIN though, so technically you are flippin burgers.

    Quote from kleinluka

    I can only say, if it wasn't for Valve and Half-Life I would be working at McDonald's right now.Thank you Valve!

    I can say similar things, and it is of course wonderful that we got those opportunities that really helped us forth, but, that was years ago, and it all feels like it is declining right now (not just Valve). The modders from today dont have the chances anymore that we once had, you may have your job and career going now, but that doesnt really help the new generation of modders. They just need a good community, good tools, support, and so on.

    Quote from Hourences

    I can say similar things, and it is of course wonderful that we got those opportunities that really helped us forth, but, that was years ago, and it all feels like it is declining right now (not just Valve). The modders from today dont have the chances anymore that we once had, you may have your job and career going now, but that doesnt really help the new generation of modders. They just need a good community, good tools, support, and so on.

    I agree, the excitement and number of mod releases has not seemed able to keep pace with the growing complexity of the average game. It used to be that people were just happy to slap some things together and put it out for the community to play with (remember playing the early CS betas? ). Now it seems like people give all the attention ( and maybe this is the norm now ) to mod teams that put together 20 man, professionally recruited dream teams that won't release anything for 2 years because it's not as pretty as a AAA title yet.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, maybe scaling back the size and visions of mod teams? Is the FPS genre even still valid for modders looking to create something efficiently that people will want to play? Maybe all the FPS modders should just give it up and start making indie games! just kidding!

    Quote

    'm not sure what the answer is, maybe scaling back the size and visions of mod teams?

    That seems to be the most crucial issue for most of the mod teams. Huge games are being planned and organisation is bad, which leads to frustration and often wasted work. Developing in Episodes might be a good thing (for singleplayer mods), so people get to release more often and keep their motivation, which is close to the "release early and often approach".

    Reading all this makes me quite happy to be modding with IDTech4 though, since you got all the tools in the game exe. Even if the AF editor is total crap.

    The SDK updates over the years have been notoriously bad, not because they add new features, but that they continually break something or everything for 90% of the userbase. There have been some great SDK upgrades however - notably when models became visible in the 2d views, the release of 3d shaded view etc. 3d Lighting preview would have been added to that list if it was accurate and displayed data from all light sources, not just spot lights (and had light bouncing).

    I too was also excited about the prospect of 'steam works' untill i found out it was just something that was becoming part of the license when you buy into the engine. It seems like it would've been a great opportunity to really tie everything together and build upon the centralised download/update/patching that steam currently provides from commercial products. Imagine it: You make a mod, build a couple of quick maps for it, maybe add in a custom weapon. That same day you upload onto the steam works mod list, maybe in a subcateogry relevant to your mod, within minutes of uploading it you have interested parties downloading it. Feedback start pouring in through the built in bug report and messages system. People start contacting you over friends as they see you were the author of mod and start to give you encouragement and ideas, a few of them even tell you they want to get involved and make content for you.

    You make some changes to the mod, recompile it and send it to the steamworks server. A popup comes up for anyone who has downloaded the mod and ticked the box that says they want to recieve updates and informs them an update is available - they click yes and start automatically patching their version of the mod. A little later you decide you want to make the mod private for a while, while you add in new features that need proper testing. You password the mod on steamworks. Everyone retains their previous copies but now when they browse the mod list and see an update for the mod they will need a password.

    Something like this would be of phenominal use to everybody. It could even use a P2P system to help with the server load when sharing the mods.

    Quote from zaphod

    I agree, the excitement and number of mod releases has not seemed able to keep pace with the growing complexity of the average game. It used to be that people were just happy to slap some things together and put it out for the community to play with (remember playing the early CS betas? ). Now it seems like people give all the attention ( and maybe this is the norm now ) to mod teams that put together 20 man, professionally recruited dream teams that won't release anything for 2 years because it's not as pretty as a AAA title yet.

    I'm not sure what the answer is, maybe scaling back the size and visions of mod teams? Is the FPS genre even still valid for modders looking to create something efficiently that people will want to play? Maybe all the FPS modders should just give it up and start making indie games! just kidding!

    That still works, is just what Garry did, or what I'm doing these days. I've been testing a new game mode (and a new map) for my mod which only required a server update, so anyone could join the server and play, make suggestions, etc. Mod development is getting ridiculously complex because you cannot ensemble competent teams without promising them the mod will be developed as a professional game. Then they start to lose contact with reality, therefore they want the same tools and attention that pro devs, same distribution channels, etc etc.

    Quote from zaphod

    My post was not meant to belittle anybody or treat anyone here like they are not developers. I assume everyone here is a developer, since there wouldn't be much point in being here if you were not. I would never shrug off the opinions of the people you mention, mostly becuase I AM one of those people you describe. I am just voicing my own opinion, on a subject I am very passionate about. My "bubble" comments were just meant to make the point that the mod world IS a very passionate and close-knit community, ( which I know first hand ) and it's easy to get caught up in details that might seem trivial when you step back and look at the entire state of things.

    I know I am repeating things that have already been said, I just mostly wanted to profess my take on things becuase I thought the idea that Valve does nothing but buy up mod teams to make things for them absolutely laughable.

    Fair enough Zaph

    Quote from Zete

    I too was also excited about the prospect of 'steam works' untill i found out it was just something that was becoming part of the license when you buy into the engine.

    what is your source for this? It seemed like it was going to be much more open and free than that?

    I've been doing homework all week, looking forward to this day where I could finally kick off my shoes and relax with some hammertime... And it doesn't work

    HAET

    -EDIT-

    I take that back. I fucking love valve for solving this issue in a time I assume is fast, considering I've only noticed it was out of order for 20 minutes

    Quote from zaphod

    what is your source for this? It seemed like it was going to be much more open and free than that?

    Sorry i think i'm wrong about that. It seems to be for commerical games only though, not for modifications.

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