They Wonder Why People Don't Make PC Games Any More

    zaphod: I agree that preaching down to the people about the moral issues of software piracy won't change anything on a global scale, but maybe it can influence a few individuals in our humble space here, to rethink their decision to download a game (illegally). Overall though I think your comparison to the music industry is valid.

    One thing I do not understand is - what makes you think buying a game nowadays is more hassle than pirating it? I'm not sure what monster connection you are on, but downloading a game demo can easily take half a day for me (demo file sizes and playtime is worth a thread on its own actually...). Downloading the entire game via torrent must take even longer, or at least it takes longer than going to the shop and pick up the hard copy (unless you live in Alaska). Or would you consider leaving your house a hassle?

    This is an interesting thread, I'm impressed how civilised it is considering the subject matter. I strongly agree with the ideas and issues raised by Zaphod.

    Quote from FrieChamp

    Or would you consider leaving your house a hassle?

    Consumers are lazy, very lazy. A large torrent may take a couple of days but it's still very convenient. Last time I went shopping I checked out a major game store franchise and the range they had was an absolute joke, for example they didn't even have a copy of UT3 in store (not interested in buying it yet but noticed it wasn't there). Sure they could order a game in for me but that would take several days and require another trip to the store.

    On the other hand the ever increasing filesize of games could deter both illegal and legitimate game downloads as the average user has a bandwidth cap. Online distribution is still my prefered means of purchase though.

    PC Games make up 14% of Total 2007 game sales

    http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/50939

    Sure, it's dominated by The Sims and World of Warcraft (of course) but that's not a terrible portion (or is it?) when you consider the Wii/360/PS3/PS2/DS/PSP

    And it doesn't factor in digital distribution. Would be interesting to have a graph of this statistic across all generations. [Blocked Image: http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g52/eot_mapcore/smilie.gif]

    I doubt the figures would change much if you could click a button online and cause a game to instantly appear on your hard drive, with no activation riddles and a hardcopy charioted to your door. While it makes things easier for the legitimate customers, I think the number of them who would defect at the prospect of leaving the house is quite small. I'd wager the vast, vast majority of piracy is done by jobless teenagers - it doesn't matter how good your distribution methods are, they'd crawl through fire to get it for nothing.

    Quote from FrieChamp

    zaphod: I agree that preaching down to the people about the moral issues of software piracy won't change anything on a global scale, but maybe it can influence a few individuals in our humble space here, to rethink their decision to download a game (illegally). Overall though I think your comparison to the music industry is valid. One thing I do not understand is - what makes you think buying a game nowadays is more hassle than pirating it? I'm not sure what monster connection you are on, but downloading a game demo can easily take half a day for me (demo file sizes and playtime is worth a thread on its own actually...). Downloading the entire game via torrent must take even longer, or at least it takes longer than going to the shop and pick up the hard copy (unless you live in Alaska). Or would you consider leaving your house a hassle?

    It's all well and good to try and persuade someone personally not pirate games just as a moral debate, I think the main point I was trying to form was that I don't think that piracy is only kids too poor to buy a game. I think there are a lot of people that pirate games that could easily afford them, and factors other than price are driving them to make that choice instead of going to the store and buying a copy or ordering one online. I think it's important for people to analyze why people are making the choice to pirate besides the cost issue (though I think that is a valid issue to look at) instead of just saying, of all pc gamers are immoral pirate teenagers, and thats the only force causing them to pirate games. I look to the music industry example and they found out with itunes that while yea, a good number of people liked downloading songs because it was free, it turned out there was a large audience of people that simply preferred the convenience of downloading songs digitally, and now itunes makes mondo bucks in a market that everyone thought you couldn't monetize because "people just wanted free music".

    I really would rather download a game than go to a store and buy it. It may turn out to be quicker to physically go to a store, but I can be downloading a game and be doing anything else I want in the mean time, I don't have to waste gas and drive down to the mall, I don't have to stand in line next to the brats that are trying to con the cashier into letting them buy an M rated game, I don't have to say that no, I don't want to buy the guide or the scratch insurance. I don't have to drive BACK to the store when my disc gets scratched and try to convince them to give me another copy, when all I want to do is freakin play the game after I have made the decision I want it. I can get the game whether target or gamestop or bestbuy is closed or not. Instead of stopping what I am doing and getting in the car, I can just click something and forget about it until it's done. I don't have to deal with updates, and I can never lose or damage my game. And it's cheaper.

    Quote from Taylor

    But if you want your game to sell it’s going to have to be published, and PC publishers are just as restrictive as their console counterparts (except maybe Nintendo). Where exactly is this slew of innovative games carrying the torch for the PC? I admit the potential is there, but the mainstream is still the same FPS stamped out with improved foliage.

    Also, you said the PC is the platform for “games that don't fit into the blockbuster console mold.” Pretty valid conclusion to draw from that, I think?

    The only reason that a game that doesn't sell a million units is considered a failure is because of the bloated development costs, marketing, etc that has evolved to such a ridiculous point in order to make a profit on a game that took 30 million dollars to make. There are plenty of games that sell much less that are considered a big success because they took a fraction of the resources to develop.

    innovative games on the pc?

    how about the entire MMO genre? owes it's entire existence to the PC and all the different open worlds that had been projects of independent pc developers.

    but if you are looking for the millions of unit sellers, (ok besides wow) you are right those are mainstream and similar to their console counterparts, but where are the non mainstream console games? It just doesn't make sense for console manufacturers to devote any space on their system for games that aren't going to sell a certain number of units. But if it's on the PC, I know I can get it - even if it's a terribly unpopular game but I happen to love it.

    Heh it's funny, I enjoy going to a store and purchase a game there. More than buying it digitally. I guess it comes down to personal preference, or habit. I like browsing the games section (maybe also check out the CD bargain shelf while I'm there) and buy a physical copy. I know you hate physical media, but I'm not so afraid of scratches to be honest, never had any problems with that (in contrast to copy protection that my dvd drive couldn't read ). I don't need to download the entire game again when it is deleted (something happens to my harddrive, or i need the space, or virus, or..) and I happen to like having a box of the game in my hands. It also comes with a manual although those admittedly lost significance over the past years. Firstly because I rely on figuring out the game mechanics in the game itself and secondly because publishers don't seem to put much effort into them anymore it seems.

    I think discussing the pros and cons of physical and digital distribution endlessly won't bring us anywhere, it's up to each consumer individually. Also the last point you mention

    Quote from zaphod

    And it's cheaper.

    is overrated the more I think about it. Of course lowering the costs is always a good thing, but is the price really what makes PC games not sell enough? PC games are generally cheaper to buy than their console counterparts! Would a 10 € difference (39 € instead of 49 € for instance) persuade a person to buy the game over pirating it (for free)?

    I'm going to just come out and say it;

    I pirate games. I'll also kindly give you some pointers to why I'm stealing Fletch's money.

    1. I cant afford games. Fletch tells me to save up money to go buy games, but most of the time I can't even save enough money to buy food. Get a job you say? When would I have time play games with a job. (Or learn how to make them). On occasion the gods (my parents) grant me some cash, be it my birthday or whatnot, I usually save that money up so I can buy the games that are really important to me (Right now I'm saving up for SC2 and new WoW Expansion).

    2. I'm too lazy to go to the store and purchase something when I can just download it while watching a movie.

    3. I know I'll loose the disk in a week, and will have to pirate it some day later anyways. I know this might sound stupid and the opinion differs from a lot of you neat freaks, but I'm a total mess and every other week even my total number of socks are odd numbers. (it varies).

    4. I get the games before they are released in Norway, sometimes even months in advance. You can say whatever you want about how I am a life sucking leech for not waiting, but when all your friends on the internet tells me this new game is the next super mario I want to play it so bad no morality story by Fletch is going to change my mind.

    5. install and play, quick. I don't have to register anywhere, I don't have to type in a cd key manually (worst case scenario is copy-paste).

    6. No annoying copy protection. I bought the latest C&C game and it wouldn't install... So I downloaded it from a torrent, and what was that? it worked?

    What I really think would help publishers/game companies is to do it the valve way. Make an online client and sell your games online. It's not hard, put three coders on it and I promise you you'll see increase in sales if that download client is easy to download, install and manage.

    I agree with your Frie, that some people like the benefits of digital distribution while others like having the physical copy - and no amount of debate will change that. If a game came out only via Digital Distribution, do you think it would lessen the chances of you buying it?

    I also wonder if it will end up being a generational thing, something like more of the adults who have been gaming for a while are nostalgic about having the box and manual and that kind of stuff, but younger kids don't have as much attachment to that and would be more likely to favor digital distribution in today's digital landscape? It will be interesting to see where the future of DD will go. It seems to be picking up steam (lol, sorry had to) at the moment.

    Price isn't really a huge deal for me, I don't buy a lot of games and when I actually run into something I want to pay it does not really matter how much it costs. But I think compared to the retail version of the same game, if you could get it 10 dollars cheaper digitally rather than off the shelf it might be a bigger deal.

    Quote from Zaphod

    The only reason that a game that doesn't sell a million units is considered a failure is because of the bloated development costs, marketing, etc that has evolved to such a ridiculous point in order to make a profit on a game that took 30 million dollars to make. There are plenty of games that sell much less that are considered a big success because they took a fraction of the resources to develop.

    This is correct, but I've no idea what this was counterpoint to in my post...

    (Edit: Oh I see, Indy stuff doesn't need a publisher and can do what it wants. Well I kinda addressed that below.)

    It's strange you bring up particular genre as the reason you have labelled the PC is the most innovative platform, when - for me - it's the PC's lack of genres that make me put that label on the consoles in the first place. I worry when you claim there are few non-mainstream console games, and I'm still not sure what you mean by, "It just doesn't make sense for console manufacturers to devote any space on their system for games that aren't going to sell a certain number of units," or how this rule somehow changes when referring to a PC manufacturer.

    I think you want to big-up the PC because it has independent developers who are the source of all awesome and not afraid to try out new things, which is true and as an avid fan of this stuff, I'm behind that 100%. But your actual arguements aren't convincing me, I certainly own more games I would consider innovative or cult on my PS2 than on my PC.

    Quote from Skjalg

    3. I know I'll loose the disk in a week, and will have to pirate it some day later anyways. I know this might sound stupid and the opinion differs from a lot of you neat freaks, but I'm a total mess and every other week even my total number of socks are odd numbers. (it varies).

    I found this funny, because I read it as "you NEET freaks." Which was most ironic.

    They... eh WE don't make PC games anymore because the consoles are so much less headache for the developers. You know EXACTLY which hardware specs you are making the game for, you don't need to check it for 20 different graphics cards etc.

    It's just easier (=cheaper) to make games for consoles. And console games are pirated too, so boo-hoo.

    Now PIRATING is an effect of easy access (read: modern technology) and way too high sales prices on games.

    For those of you who didn't know, there is a strong movement internationally today to change copyright laws to be in accordance with the realities of the information age. See for example:

    http://www2.piratpartiet.se/international/english

    This party got a whole 1% of the votes in their debut participation in the national elections in Sweden, effectively forcing the issue to be included in the political agenda of the major parties. Their supporters include members of the games and music industry.

    Quote from WitchKing

    http://www2.piratpartiet.se/international/english

    This party got a whole 1% of the votes in their debut participation in the national elections in Sweden, effectively forcing the issue to be included in the political agenda of the major parties. Their supporters include members of the games and music industry.

    I'm wondering what interest musicians and game developers would have in having their creative efforts used by others without any return service (as long as it's privately used or 5 years after its publication for commercial use)? This pirate part'ys agenda is hypocritical, they talk about getting rid of patents to make medicine in the 3rd world cheaper, or to strengthen the respect for privacy and protection from governmental prosecution, yet it seems their only goal is to legalize copyright infrictions.

    Basically they want to combat the tendencies towards a 1984-style surveillance society, and instead open the way for realising the productive and creative potential of modern information technology.

    They argue that non-commercial filesharing stimulates both cultural expression and economic growth, as well as the general well-being of people, whereas artificially restricting the natural distribution of ideas and culture will stifle society - especially considering that in the end it can't be done without effectively allowing the police to come to your home and search your computer and your desk drawers.

    It's also about making law catch up with reality. Five hundred years ago it was illegal to say that the world was round.

    Besides, I'm a game developer and it's the publisher who's gonna cash in on my hard work, not me. And they are not productive, they have just managed to work a system which requires a old-fashioned physical distribution chain, thereby profiting on other people's (mine!) creative work.

    Valve is sort of being more modern with Steam - but the day every developer sells their games on download without letting publishers walk away with over half the profits, that's when this industry will have modernised more.

    One question:

    If I tell you something interesting from the book I'm reading and you don't pay the publisher for it - is that immoral?

    By the way - this with the copyright/piracy issues is not just about a few progressive modern-day crazy vikings. It's a HUGE and growing discussion worldwide, which is much too complex and extensive to summarize here

    Check it out, it's very interesting.

    I think you need to seperate between a police state that is suppressing its citizens to avoid free thinking to uphold its reign for its own sake AND police raids in order to protect other citizen's rights, their right to decide on their own what's meant to happen with their creative labour. Now you may think these rights/laws are outdated or not needed, which scares me even more, because that reminds me of communist regimes. Anyway, as you said, the topic is probably to extensive to discuss here in detail, but I still don't understand why you would rather not earn anything at all from your work than share the profits with a publisher. I mean I understand the motives, but this is either very idealistic or simply not well thought through.

    Moving forward here is an article on gamasutra about game personalization in order to create additional motivation for consumers to buy the game over pirating it:

    Quote

    So what would it mean to build a game *for a specific customer*? I'm not sure. But I'm not talking about binding it to the user's machine with DRM. No, people will find a way to strip it out anyway. No, the personalization has to add value in some way. DRM doesn’t add value for the customer, it adds inconvenience at best and outrage and resentment at worst (one need only to look as far as the numerous postings about the PC release of the otherwise-wonderful BioShock for an example).

    This kind of ties in with the idea that has been mentioned before about customizing your game and only buy the parts that you want to play. This idea goes even further though, in the way that the developer adds a personal value to the game for the consumer by shipping a customized version of the game to him.

    http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_i ... tory=16790

    I'm not whining about the publishers. I'm just saying that there's no special reason why it's good for the industry to protect their copyright as it is defined now.

    I do agree with those advocating reform that current copyright laws usually rest on some pretty arbitrary preconceptions, and that it would be better for the industry to adapt with new business models instead of supporting expensive and intrusive surveillance of private citizens' communications.

    The whole issue does make me think of communist regimes, we agree there

    I am a professional and I want to be paid (lots) for my work. I just don't think my profits will go up from new and oppressive laws trying to artificially keep an antiquated intellectual property system barely alive. If anything that whole expensive surveillance system will make taxes go up and I will make LESS money

    As I said - new business models! I don't see Blizzard whining about WoW piracy.

    Anyway - pirating games is the easiest thing in the world - and still sales are huge for the really good games out there. So I wouldn't worry too much about our profits.

    I guess that a lot of us just like paying for a good product.

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