[CS:GO] Second World

    So in late 2018, I started working on a map, and currently, it is on the Workshop as Chlorine v1.0. However, it is really bad for a multitude of reasons. I have since created compile V1.2 and build V1.2.1, and I'm working on improving balance between taking vs holding sites. V1.2 mostly focuses on Bombsite A and the most direct T approach to it through Warehouse, and V1.3 is going to be improving on Bombsite B and the most direct CT approach to it through Mid. A second version is in the works that I started on from scratch, and with which I'll be focusing on gameplay a whole lot more from the getgo.

    Those, however, are only the rough sketches. I would like as much feedback or suggestions as possible, both regarding the gameplay (which is a bit T-sided due to long rotation times, but also has trouble with there being too many entrypoints to the bombsites), visuals (which is quite barren at the moment, and very claustrophobic at points), and the theme (that of an old Soviet bloc spa complex that is being deconstructed).

    Here is a video of V1.2:

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    Something that jumps out to me immediately is it seems like no matter where you are there are dozens of angles you have to watch out for which can make the gameplay feel very overwhelming. In addition, there seem to be multiple paths scattered everywhere (a few involving parkour elements) which could also feel overwhelming. If you compare it to Valve maps, they have very simple layouts overall but feel like they have more depth due to visuals.

    This may just be my personal taste but bombsite A feels very difficult to retake as there are a lot of long and parkour involved sight-lines that can lead to even a single T waiting for a defuse and taking a cheap shot. B site could use some more cover on the plant area but without a smoke grenade (and even that you can spray through it) it seems very difficult to defuse on either bombsite.

    There are also a lot of tight areas, one being going into A site which could be very frustrating to play with when you have a teammate blocking you. I think you could have an interesting mechanic forcing 1 by 1 using tight areas but i'm personally not sure this is spot for it. Molotov's and smokes spread quite far so you can open up these areas and still give players the ability to cut them off.

    Lastly there are a lot of random corners that seem to be there just to camp while getting cheap shots off. I really don't like that hiding spots under the double stairs for example, it just seems frustrating to play against.


    Anyway, take my opinions with a grain of salt as I'm no expert on any of this.

    Yeah, the map has a history of being too large, most of the "campy" corners exist because of that. I also agree that it is a really cluttered map that is too closed at times. A lot of them have been closed up already, though.

    I deliberately avoided making the A site overhead entrance wider, as I think it would lead to that area being too exposed. Also, as I said, I'll be working on cover near bombsite B, especially near the exits from the pools. It is deliberate that there's very little cover on the sites themselves, instead having it spread out around, that being the long distance between the sites. If retaking was any harder, it would be really T-sided. For a while now, I was trying to let CTs gain a foothold a short distance from the sites, while simultaneously reducing the number of options Ts have, but I didn't take into consideration how CTs would defend or Ts would attack. With the newest builds, I've started putting cover in places where CTs can take advantage of them, and making T approaches more open for grenade throws and easier to push through. For instance, the bottom half of the warehouse area used to be much tighter with a bunch of crates piled in a way that leads straight up. It could be mollied from the top to stop pushes, and both teams had a clear view onto each other. The new layout encourages both teams to use utility smarter, and allows for both more aggressive and more tactical pushes, early or late in the round.

    This is not to say I disagree with you, just to present my train of thought.

    Quick update, I've uploaded the newest version to the workshop with an (incomplete) list of changes. I'll be updating the screenshots later (it's 12:17 am right now), and recording footage of the largest differences compared to my previous video. Some of the more important changes:

    • Moved CT spawns forward
    • Added more opportunities for grenade throws
    • Added cover to help CTs in various places

    There's a problem in the map right now that I'm aware of (an unintended boost that allows incredible sightlines), but I think I'll just keep it to myself for the time being. If all goes well, I can get people to playtest it shortly, so changes are to be anticipated anyways.

    The video doesn't show, but the radar now correctly has its lowest colour value at the lowest points of the map, making ramps clearer. Also, there are radar callouts now.

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    There are multiple problems I'm aware of at the moment that I'll soon fix, including the lackluster lighting. For now, this version is available on the workshop.

    The map looks quite condensed, with unnecessary obstructions of flow all throughout the building. The best way to fix these areas would be to A} Plan the map more thoroughly, or B} Use more reference images to get a better feel of scale (or do both). Scale is hard to get right initially, I wish I had screenshots of my first "map" still around. The best advice to improve scale is to focus on making individual elements the right size (doorways, wall width, ceiling height). Then the map will start feeling better immediately.

    I have used this page a few times in the past: https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dimensions. Eventually you will be able to let go of the ropes and freestyle the scale, but this is a good tool to learn it.

    Also, it is important to have an idea of what each part of your map will be thematically, not only to save yourself time later, but also to generate new ideas. Suppose on part of the map is a bath house. That might let you use jacuzzis as cover, or change the shape of the building. In a power plant map I am making, the curve of the cooling tower provides an interesting curved route. It is not a bad thing to let the theme seep into the gameplay as long as you plan it early and it makes good sense from a gameplay perspective.

    Lastly, beyond just making paths to the sites and a middle, it is a good idea to know how your map will play. When you have a vision for a map, it is much easier to make changes because they will have a purpose. If a map has a blind future and many iterations are made, certain parts of the map may not be conducive to each other. Maybe the rotates will be very long, but paired with impossible retakes (not a good combo). Planning doesn't have to be long winded and complex, just know the timings and pacing, and try to imagine how a few basic scenarios would play out. How useful will nades be? Who has the advantage in certain areas? Is there room for T's to set up before an attack? Is movement through the paths interesting and varied? Are there enough decisions to make when moving throughout the map? A lot of it will make sense when you look at your map with an eye of scrutiny and think of where it fails in your own mind. Keep it up, you got this.

    Yeah, the scale used to be way off. Initially, it was larger than the largest square the current version would fit in. I didn't plan it at all - it's my first (and so far only) map, and all I know about mapping I've learned while making it. I know that it would make more sense to take the core conept and start over (I kinda started that already), but I keep getting ideas on how to improve this version one last time and just can't get myself to leave it "unfinished". Maybe I should.

    Thematically, I initially had a place in mind that I based previous versions of the map on, but then gameplay considerations took over. I could loosely re-match areas with their IRL counterparts, but I'm not about to get into custom models just yet, without which I can't do the map justice. It hurts, but eh. Some areas need reworking, though. Thematically as well as gameplay-wise.

    The reason I have no real plans for this version of the map is that I've always considered apparent, easy-to-identify problems as higher priority than prevalent, overarching design issues. For a period, I was removing sightlines; then, adjusting rotations; then, removing unnecessary areas; then, adding cover; right now, I'm making the map less claustrophobic, and more open for grenade throws. The problem is, all of that requires I make changes per area individually, and leave the map itself mostly intact. Which means I'm not addressing core problems with it. I will try to work on my mentality going forward.

    Thanks for your input! I greatly appreciate it. ❤️

    Since last night, I had time to think. The biggest problem regarding my map is just how impossibly hard it is to retake due to cramped entrances and long between-site rotations, and this is what I need to address first and foremost. My current plans are as follows (see picture if necessary):

    • Open up wall between T spawn and T side lower. I want Ts to get to Warehouse faster than CTs, and CT bots should be able to check this place quickly from a distance.
    • Move A site inwards. Let's face it, the overhead "entrance" is just another place for Ts to camp in afterplant, and there's a lot of unnecessary space all around. Moving it inward will also obscure vision from Warehouse and Water, letting CTs more effectively hold the site even after Ts have pushed into those areas.
    • Rework B site. Honestly, this is the one I'm the furthest from achieving. I only have vague ideas for this, and so far I'm pretty unsure how to tackle it, and I'm open to suggestions on this one especially.
    • Replace pools with sports courses. This is a large thematic change that simply needs to happen, what with the map not making good use of the original idea. This affects other areas, too.
    • Flip stairs from U-bend to S-bend to make CT rotations to tunnel faster, as well as making it slimmer and bending it in an L-shape. Making it occupy less space would also make CT side upper span a shorter distance, making space for A. The unused space could nicely be filled up with vending machines.

    This has gone unread for a while, huh?

    Well, I'm back at it. I've made quite a few changes, actually, mostly to reduce the number of options terrorists have to attack, and opening up the space for grenades and rotates; while at the same time, helping counter-terrorists get in place and behind cover in time. That overview in the post one above this? Yeah, no.

    Some of the marked changes didn't make it; for instance, the warehouse area near the bottom wasn't shrunk down, and A site remained where it was. B site, however, got changed a lot. The entrance from the corridor area was opened up, with a bit of cover added; a new entrance was added from the shop; and the backside was simplified.

    The big stairs were changed, although not by turning them around, but by introducing a U-bend, so it still comes out at the same spot overground, but it's more connected to the rest of the underground, which was shuffled around a bit to where Ts have an advantage to bottom side of warehouse, but are much slower going underground to B.

    One of the approaches to A was removed entirely. It just played into the hands of Ts holding, and wasn't a good option for retaking CTs, which was supposed to be its original purpose. Similarly, the slide mount overlooking the hedge area was blocked off, since it could no longer see into B.

    For a long while now, my focus was on reducing playable space, and that is still very much in the picture (the two pools are both too open and too large, for instance). However, in my recent attempts to make the map play better, I tried to make grenades more viable by connecting areas and to make individual encounters more fun by adding more cover to play around, and found that these made bigger improvements. Likely that was only because the map was so bare-bones, but it's still something I'll keep in mind going forward: if an area isn't fun, it's either disconnected, or the cover (if any) is uninteresting.

    Another thing I was struggling a lot with were rotations, because I kinda counted them from spawn to site. That was the wrong approach, testified best by the fact that Ts being able to get hold of the bottom half of warehouse at about the same time CTs could lock down the top half made A side plays actually possible. I'll have to redo them on the B side in a similar fashion as well, except I'm not quite sure yet where CTs should hold around B.

    Pictures for clarity. Sorry for wall of text XP

    Also, currently I'm having issues with optimisation. I'll have to work on that some more before I can put it up for playtesting.

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