EU Referendum

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Quote from laminutederire

1 minute ago, laminutederire said: I may have mispoken, I meant to say UK was arrogant

And I do agree with your position on the British motivation in the EU.

As for thé global unity, I agree as well, but I feel like we're fundamentally bound to make that unity a reality in the EU as a proof of concept, so as to lead that movement to a larger scale. Otherwise you'll always see the US being skeptic and not playing it as they should, just like the UK.

And thanks for the reference I'll try to watch it as legally as I can

My reply was directed at Skybex and not you

I'm pro global unity but I don't believe it will ever happen. We are constantly labeled so that people with power can inspire fear and hatred among us. Keep us fighting with each other. Religion, race, gender, sexual preference, whatever keeps us divided. Plus, everybody know the poor are always being fucked over by the rich. Always have, always will.

No, the only way we'll ever be united as a people, is when a new treat appears that we are forced to face together in order to survive. It's only then that we can set aside our petty differences. But knowing history, probably only for the duration of that said threat.

My comment about the arrogance was directed towards Angela Merkel and the rest who were against throwing Cameron a bone so he could go back and say "I have negotiated a good deal for the UK" even if in the end it resulted in nothing. They wanted to make a show of power by playing hard ball.

And I am of the opposite view, in that it was the EU that bluffed and the UK called it. They tried to make a show of Cameron by rejecting anything he was fighting for on the assumption that the UK wouldn't leave. The UK people voted and now both the Pound and Euro has significantly dropped, calls for a referendum in many other EU nations and thoughts of a possible weak EU are driving people to doubt the whole thing.

Quote from Skybex

1 minute ago, Skybex said: My comment about the arrogance was directed towards Angela Merkel and the rest who were against throwing Cameron a bone so he could go back and say "I have negotiated a good deal for the UK" even if in the end it resulted in nothing. They wanted to make a show of power by playing hard ball.

And I am of the opposite view, in that it was the EU that bluffed and the UK called it. They tried to make a show of Cameron by rejecting anything he was fighting for on the assumption that the UK wouldn't leave. The UK people voted and now both the Pound and Euro has significantly dropped, calls for a referendum in many other EU nations and thoughts of a possible weak EU are driving people to doubt the whole thing.

Nothing wrong with different opinions or views

Let's just hope it turns out for the better for ALL of us!

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I'm glad this happend to be honest. It will cause some unpleasant effects and inconveniences for sure but what's important to me is that the EU politicians got finaly shown limits to what they are doing. They can't continue as they did before or the whole thing will collapse eventualy. Now is the right time to reform this monstrosity and tune it down a notch or two.

I'm all for an EU that serves as an instrument of growth, peace and stability as was the original plan but what i strongly oppose is moves towards a unified Europe as one country, lead by undemocratic institutions and the whims of oligarchs, which it was heading towards. The EU needs to respect the integrity and right to self determination of each of its member countries as well as the democratic will of their people.

What i found fascinating in the lead up to the Brexit poll is how much this was turned into a left vs. right issue. Quite ingenious by the EU oligarchs to convice the left that both are on the same side. Shows in what an Orwellian world we already live in, where certain terms mean nothing anymore and the vast majority of people appears brainwashed in one direction or another. Does anyone actualy believe that Britons will be isolated from the rest of Europe just because they arn't part of the EU anymore? Look at those poor Swiss and Norwegians in their ghettos.

Good for you guys ! No more taxes for morons searching for optimal amount of water needed to flush a shit.

Honestly, I wish we could go too. I'm sick and tired of billions going to Greece and what not, while we have so many problems of our own. Taxes are being increased at an incredible rate while we have the work longer, our pensions are cut and we can't take proper care of our old people. I have nothing against anybody and if you have more than enough, build a bigger table and not a higher fence. But seriously, the amount of money that we (and other countries) are having to pay for EU is ridiculous. I do believe in the possibilities of EU, but not like this. So I think @Steppenwolf has some valid points, like always really. You should post more Step

I always saying that EU should be only an economic alliance. Where free market is really free and flow of the goods is not unsettled. When they started to interfere in internal policies of EU members it was set to fail. More than 75% of polish law is made by the european commision. You think this is a democracy but I did not vote for any european commissioner and so do you guys. It's an illusion for all the people thinking they can do something for Europe. For me free market and flow of the goods between the members of EU should be the only reason for EU to exist. Right now we are living in a big bureaucracy machine. We pay those idiots to debate about gender free speech, user manuals for ladders, user manuals for wellingtons, curve of the banana and the ammount needed to flush a shit. Is this what you guys voted for ? I don't think so. I'm EU skeptical but I wanted BR to stay in EU since Poland is now dependent in Germany-France axis. The EU will collapse in 2 - 3 years with or without BR.

This gave me a good laugh

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I really hope that free movement of workers somehow ends up being maintained, which I think is something that Switzerland has negotiated with the EU despite existing outside of it. For me that's one of the saddest parts of this whole thing because being able to easily live around the world without incurring huge expense and/or cost is a wonderful concept. It'd also be an entertaining blow to the segment of 'out' voters who are basically just a bit racist.

The EU in its current form just reminds me a lot of the Fifa and IOC, down to this faux facade of humanitarianism and progressiveness. But what people need to understand is that everything in such an institution is designed to line someones pockets. People on the left get blinded by the immigration issue just as much as people on the right. I mention this because it was THE big topic for Brexit apparently. Merkel or Juncker don't give a shit about human rights or those refugees. They want two things: 1) a divided and thereby easily controllable and manipulable population 2) cheap labour.

The real tragedy of happenings such as this Brexit is that it highlights how little people are able to identify the elephant in the room. There is no strive for finding a consensus or common ground anymore. Everyone only looks for what the others do and opposes it, no matter what.

Quote from Steppenwolf

22 minutes ago, Steppenwolf said: People on the left get blinded by the immigration issue just as much as people on the right. I mention this because it was THE big topic for Brexit apparently. Merkel or Juncker don't give a shit about human rights or those refugees. They want two things: 1) a divided and thereby easily controllable and manipulable population 2) cheap labour.

This, sadly, is one of the more unfortunate things about the whole campaign. Immigration was the key issue, especially with the recent so called immigration crisis. But it was hardly ever talked about because both sides of the argument had to avoid the topic as the moment immigration is mentioned, the left just shout "racists" or "bigots" repeatedly to drown out any discussion. So no true discussion on the topic was had and most people were left with information they read in outside sources (often either fear mongering or unrealistic idealism) or what they might see locally.

I can see and understand both sides to leave and remain, but the day I allow Fucking Farage a victory sitting down is the day I've given up on the idea of humanity making progress.

Quote from Skybex

30 minutes ago, Skybex said: This, sadly, is one of the more unfortunate things about the whole campaign. Immigration was the key issue, especially with the recent so called immigration crisis. But it was hardly ever talked about because both sides of the argument had to avoid the topic as the moment immigration is mentioned, the left just shout "racists" or "bigots" repeatedly to drown out any discussion. So no true discussion on the topic was had and most people were left with information they read in outside sources (often either fear mongering or unrealistic idealism) or what they might see locally.

Same thing is happening here in Germany. We have no open discussion about the EU itself even tho there would be so much that many people from all sides could agree on, particularely with TTIP and such nonsense on the horizon. Instead the conversation has been distilled down to pro or con immigration.

This leads to some truly amazing and grotesque real life satire. For instance when important people in the left party start parroting what industry lobbyist say about the importance of economic growth, lack of skilled workers etc. when traditionally they should be the ones trying to keep the neoliberal agenda in check.

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Your move, Texas.

Maybe a leave of this magnitude was required to trigger some needed change in the union. I understand that people don't like a lot with how the EU works, seems when I read the news, every week there's a EU-law or directive that doesn't fit too well with something here, or feels very unnecessary.

In Sweden EU-laws are superior to Swedish national laws, with some few exceptions, it's even written in our constitution that we are a member of the EU and the constitution is in many ways adopted to fit well into the EU and how it works. I read a number, it was quiet some while ago though, that up to 25% of all new laws passed in Sweden is influenced by EU-laws and adopted to work with the EU.

As for it being immigration that was the key factor, I'm sure it was, it always is - always will be. Throughout history - everywhere and here. It's an unsolvable issue, cause famine, starvation and war will always happen somewhere and we can't stop famine, starvation and war. I think it's a dissolution to think that immigration is solvable to the extent so that everyone is happy. It's better just to accept and live with it.