But this still doesn't fix the most important problem with the Santorini right now: The lack of the N€IN graffiti 
Speaking of the underground double path to B, though: you removed the hole to throw grenades into pretty fast and it stayed that way. How do you think the functionality of this double udnerground pathway developed as you improved the map?
Quote from RivFaderSpeaking of the underground double path to B, though: you removed the hole to throw grenades into pretty fast and it stayed that way. How do you think the functionality of this double udnerground pathway developed as you improved the map?
I wouldn't have minded keeping those little holes because they were pretty neat, but simple things like that destroy FPS because it's a portal into mid. Gameplay wise they would have been a cool gimmick because the worst thing that can happen is a nade goes up or down through them or if players are really feeling brave, somehow toss the bomb up/through them. It's the kind of feature you have to literally build your map around, though, and in the end they didn't present anywhere near enough value for the insane FPS cost/hassle of implementing to be worthwhile.
I'm curious how those changes affect gameplay. I have only played one of the very first versions of the workshop full release.
Nice to see, how much effort you put towards improving an already pretty good map. 
Quote from laminutederire
I guess it's "the space that's not being there". Or in more simple terms, the areas you can't acces in the map.
The positive space is the part of the map you can walk and maneuver, where you actually play. The negative space is the part where you can't play.
So these are the parts inbetween the pathways (the black holes in a map overview)
I feel this space is quite important cause it creates rotation times etc, also the amount of negative vs positive space makes up for complexity of the map.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Quote from TomatoI feel this space is quite important cause it creates rotation times etc, also the amount of negative vs positive space makes up for complexity of the map.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
In my opinion space like that is the reason to why CS maps are so linear and full och corridors. Maps are mostly a theme and then a random set of corridors. Early cod games handled maps much better, with little to no "negative space". Look at maps like Crash, strike, terminal, highrise, backlot etc, all amazing competitive maps. I think mappers spend too little time on layout, mostly they spend the first few hours, weeks on it, and then months on the theme.
FMPONE: What is the name of the brick textures used in the map? Like this one http://puu.sh/l8qP4/fb7a98d77d.jpg to the right. Customs I guess since I have never seen it in another map.
Quote from Bodd JonarIn my opinion space like that is the reason to why CS maps are so linear and full och corridors. Maps are mostly a theme and then a random set of corridors. Early cod games handled maps much better, with little to no "negative space". Look at maps like Crash, strike, terminal, highrise, backlot etc, all amazing competitive maps. I think mappers spend too little time on layout, mostly they spend the first few hours, weeks on it, and then months on the theme.
FMPONE: What is the name of the brick textures used in the map? Like this one http://puu.sh/l8qP4/fb7a98d77d.jpg to the right. Customs I guess since I have never seen it in another map.
yeah but remember that Source is very clunky, so that was a technical restriction originally, and CS gameplay is not a straightforward TDM that needs super-connected maps, null rotations (because you want to be firing 5 secs after spawning) etc. Also in the past mappers, wanted to control the use of grenades, and/or player weren't bothered by the invisible walls so there wasn't the need of openess as much as now.
Not sure the experience is very comparable. That being said, some principles should/could be taken into account and attempt made at achieving the feeling.
Quote from blackdogyeah but remember that Source is very clunky, so that was a technical restriction originally, and CS gameplay is not a straightforward TDM that needs super-connected maps, null rotations (because you want to be firing 5 secs after spawning) etc. Not sure the experience is very comparable.
In my personal opinion CS is like a chessplay.
From the start you move your pawns to certain positions (chokepoints) and then the play unravels bit by bit.
Whenever a someone gets picked a piece is slain and an opening is made in the opponents defence/offence.
Therefore the team has to reconsider its approach and maybe reposition.
I feel the corridor layout suits this playstyle well.
Just a heads up, you might already be aware of this.
The bombsites are switched on the radar and you can not plant on A at all and you can only plant on 3/4 of B.
4 hours ago, Vaya said:'Before' doesn't include those nasty windows onto B that I'm glad you ended up removing ...
Quote from FMPONEI don't have that radar anymore, it was an early cut
I gotchu fam 
A really good talk about Negative space that I actually had the chance to see in person.
Quote from blackdogyeah but remember that Source is very clunky, so that was a technical restriction originally, and CS gameplay is not a straightforward TDM that needs super-connected maps, null rotations (because you want to be firing 5 secs after spawning) etc. Also in the past mappers, wanted to control the use of grenades, and/or player weren't bothered by the invisible walls so there wasn't the need of openess as much as now.Not sure the experience is very comparable. That being said, some principles should/could be taken into account and attempt made at achieving the feeling.
True, source sucks, but I think you are misinformed about what CoD gameplay was before. It was just like cs, but called search and destroy. The maps were built for that gamemode. The true reason to why maps are like they are now is probably because of what you said, source limitations, but also because it is the easy way to make maps, it is very easy to get an idea on how the map will be played, control rotation times, timings etc. I like it, but more open maps would be welcomed.
@FMPONE rotate through cafe shouldn't be a crouchjump A->B. New players (silver/nova ranks) may struggle doing it consistently and it's a main route.
Quote from cashedA really good talk about Negative space that I actually had the chance to see in person.
This is really really interesting. Can't wait to look into that one.
Quote from Vaya@FMPONE rotate through cafe shouldn't be a crouchjump A->B. New players (silver/nova ranks) may struggle doing it consistently and it's a main route.
Yup, that's a great point.
Im going to go on a limb and say there was confusion between dead space and negative space.
Quote from cashedIm going to go on a limb and say there was confusion between dead space and negative space.
how would you count dead space though? As a lay man, I would say dead space is unnecessary areas of map which don't add to game play.
Negative space would be the black patches on a radar that the lower a number of, the less interconnectivity of said map which could be indicative of a more simple layout.
And coming from an art background, if we were to draw something's negative space, say a person, those areas would be the shape created by having your hand on your hip.
take a look at the gdc talk. dead space is sometimes good for the story telling of a space. though there may not be many encounters in them, they act as timing buffers and mental down time.
Ignoring the performance issues, I would think that the 'standard' use of negative space is necessary for a few reasons. Smokes have their strategic strength because of the ability to block off specific paths, which wouldn't really be possible in a more open area. As well, the relative strength of scoped weapons at range make it so that these weapons have too much strength and way too many long angles that other weapons wouldn't be able to compete.
Didn't know where to put this, but when going through the tunnels to bombsite B on Santorini, one guy can block the entire hall due the hallway being angled and the player boundary box not being angled (classic Source).
[Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/mSB3HWh.jpg]
[Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/ovdL9Wk.png]
This can cause quite the frustation sometimes when you are two or more people inside those tunnels.
Fun map though, even though I think bombsite A is kinda hard to hold due to the guy holding mid not being able to cover for the terrorists coming to A through mid connector.
The 10-ish times I've played it now in MM (@ global/supreme level) it seems like 3 guys A, 1 mid and 1 B is the best CT tactic. One A can push lower fast and see if he spots anyone, if not he can rush through and flank them. The other guy A can push or hold connector to mid from A.
man i wish they would come into the 21st century and use capsules
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