Investment Bankers...

    I am just now listening to the podcast so take my opinion with a grain of salt. This is a lamens understanding of bitcoin without any kind of proper research...


    My issue with the cryptocurrencies is that at the end of the day, the value of the currency is only as good as the reputation of the source backing that value (i.e. a government or some other established organization that is prepared to reinforce the stability of the currency). The gold standard and/or the dual coin system (gold and silver) worked not because of the backing of governments but because of the innate real barter value of those coins (i.e. worth its weight in gold) becuase they were precious commodities. Granted, I believe that digital currency eventually will become pervasive throughout the developed world--but without any kind of real barter value outside of the digital realm I cannot utilize that currency except in special situations (and only if recognized by the central bank of the government). Furthermore, the volatility of the value of the currency dissuades the common user from latching onto the new currency--thereby further reducing its value and use. I have no perceived value in investing in or transitioning towards a cryptocurrency and/or digital currency as I do not possess the means to benefit from such a trade (namely, large amounts of disposable income).


    Not to mention the amount of crime faciliated by cryptocurrencies. Governments and other established currency users/bases en masse have a real interest to prevent the switch due to fraud and stealing of their goods/services.

    So you guys are all agree with what the government and the banks have done with your money. If not here's why Bitcoin might really interest you and why it's not late to invest.


    INTRO


    I discovered Bitcoin end of 2012. I started to be curious and learning how to mine some. Only this time, it was already too late (compared to the power of my computer). Therefore I started to mine Litecoin always in order to learn more about the technology. Its was such a game to me.


    So as I couldn't spend any Litecoin I decided to buy some Bitcoin to get a glance on how to send BTC to someone and to see how is performed the online purchases. Anything interesting to buy I left my Bitcoin aside.


    The more I was reading information about, the more I was like "What a Bullshit"!


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    THE TRIGGER


    Early December 2013 I read the news which basically explain that my Bitcoin should worth for about 5 000 €. Reinstalled the BTC client, Resynchronized with the network and checked my wallet. You can't imagine how cool is it. I felt like I won a Million dollars on TV and I was like "Damnit I would rather bet more". Tried to trade it back in Euros and several days later I had my BTC back in Euros.


    This was the trigger I needed. (I must admit that this time I was very lucky because at the end of month BTC's value was divided by two) But as I am rather someone objective, I don't like to make preconceived opinion so I look at synthesized all the information I could find. And the more I discovered wasn't about Bitcoin. It was about the Financial system we've all accepted at birth.


    I mean... This doesn't surprise you to ask a lot of questions about the protocol which is BTC instead anything about the current monetary system ?


    The bank bailout that while ordinary taxpayers take the pain, for the banks, it's largely business as usual. They are using government guaranteed funds to gamble with derivatives as they did before the crash. The banks are still paying vast salaries and bonuses and hide the sums they're really paying out. The banks' booming margins come from the free and near free money the government and taxpayers gave them to save the banking system. Normally a local currency has to trust all kinds of people for it to be able to work. So does a national currency. And in both cases, that trust is often abused. But with Bitcoin, there's no one person who can abuse the system.


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    The amount of information I discovered is huge. Also feel free to look back in the history of commodities, the how and the why governments started to create centralized Bank in partnership with private Banks. Very interesting topic.


    I also spend a weekend to understand the most I can about the technology behind Bitcoin. Do it too. https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf


    SO WHAT IS BITCOIN ?


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    Bitcoin is a complicated technology, and it can take a while to wrap your head around how ingenious it is. Bitcoin protocol allows to transfer a digital good from point A to point B so the point A lose the good. If you send a mail to someone you still have a copy. Send a picture to someone you still gave a copy. If you send a Bitcoin to someone you lose it. It's a major innovation! Even if you don't think so.


    There's others protocols that have changed our live. I'm thinking about email and VoIP. If you look closer on how telecoms have reacts to VoIP threatening the destruction of jobs but now not a package is sold without! (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/0…N0L414G20140130)


    Bitcoin is disruptive (As I said before the transfer is roughly free. The network charge you an amount of fees when you transfer several BTC at rush hour) The US market of banking transfer alone represents $17 billion. Do you get the why you read shitty article everywhere. The Bank system you all attached is more like giving somebody a stick to beat you with.


    Bitcoin isn't a currency at all. It is a virtual currency as $, € and all the others ¤.


    BITCOIN # LITECOIN, PPCOIN, NEXTCOIN AND OTHER DOGECOIN


    As Bitcoin is open source everyone can start it's own "currency" (I suggest to trade on Mapcore with HPcoin). What's make Bitcoin so different compared to all the other? The answer is pretty simple, the strength of Bitcoin's network. Indeed the network is so vast right know that it become more and more difficult to speculate as we can read above. As this currency is pretty young in the history of currencies you can still try to speculate but you will need a lot of money and to target several trade market. Also the disparity between the euro and the dollar are gradually fades.


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    BITCOIN AND THE FUTURE OF PAYMENT


    Hopefully some of you still serious instead of trolololling and wanted to know if they can still invest in BTC. The answer is definitely YES.


    Bitcoin is the future of payment. It's a movement no one can stop. Banks run their own system and will soon have to deal with. Why ?

    - The network is more secure than their own system. Moreover It's only a matter of time until they find a new business models (remember they will have to draw a big red cross behind their fees on transfer market).


    What happen if they don't ?

    - I don't mind they won't. Bitcoin is over all made by people for the people. More and more business focus on bringing SAAS and Apps on Smartphone to manage your BTC Wallet. Why do I need a Bank to charge me anymore?


    CONCLUSION


    As Telecoms did at their time, Banks will soon adopt the Bitcoin system. So here is the answer everyone asked to know... Why should I invest in Bitcoin?

    - An agreement amongst a community of people to use 21 million secure mathematical Bitcoin. Currently there are 12 million active bitcoin transiting in the network. If the current buy price is arround $800. All the Bitcoin worth around 10 Billion dollars.


    If you look closer about the amount of dollars that transit worldwide, it might be much more 100 Billion dollars. To Transit all this money using the Bitcoin protocol will have to reevaluate up the price of BTC. Buy a $800 BTC today which should assert over $100 000 in a near future.


    Lick my ball and such my ass.

    I have some coder friends who made the calcul, and apparently they can pay their yearly heating bill by "mining" doge coins. Don't tell me how you mine doge coins though, that's a bit too technical for me. It has something to do about resolving algorithms or whatever.


    There's also people who will dogefy your picture for doge coins, others that will sell stuff for doge coins, others that will post photos of them naked for doge coins...


    Quote

    Buy a $800 BTC today which should assert over $100 000 in a near future.


    But who will transform your over expensive bitcoins into a material currency ? Comment est ce que tu vas blanchir tes bitcoins


    In the end it will only work if there is as much people as possible using the currency (to go more than buying steam keys, or computer parts). And to me it seems a bit too technical to touch most of the population. Except if the banks and institutions in place, who have the power of communication, the customers, make them change their opinion about bitcoins, dogecoins or the like. Because if i have doubts about the future of crypto currencies, imagine the doubts someone who touches a computer 1 time a week could have about a currency that has a dog face on it.


    Also if banks and other investors want to destroy the business, it's always possible to create an effect of inflation and destroy the entire crypto economy by just owning them all.


    But maybe you are right Seldoon, to me it won't work if the major investors don't go into the system. But if they do, i mean, what would be the difference then ?

    Quote from KoKo5oVaR

    I have some coder friends who made the calcul, and apparently they can pay their yearly heating bill by "mining" doge coins. Don't tell me how you mine doge coins though, that's a bit too technical for me. It has something to do about resolving algorithms or whatever.


    When you are a "miner" you resolving algorithms by laying the power of your hardware to verify the public transaction stocked in the blockchain (everything is explained here Koko: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf). Then you get reward with a set amount of bitcoins per block taken from the original limited quantity on pre-agreed schedule. Even if Litecoin has always been denominated as the most important cryptocurrency after the Bitcoin, the Dogecoin is about to supplant Litecoin this year. Lool.

    Quote from KoKo5oVaR

    But who will transform your over expensive bitcoins into a material currency ? Comment est ce que tu vas blanchir tes bitcoins


    Once again, don't be fooled Richard! With Bitcoin, there's no one person who can abuse the system. Nobody can print more money, nobody can re-use the coins simply by making a copy, and nobody can use anyone else's coins without having direct access to their Wallet. People who break its mathematical "rules" simply end up creating a whole different system incompatible with the first. As long as these rules are followed by someone, the only way Bitcoin can fail is for everyone to stop using it.


    Also even if the transaction is "anonymous" the blockchain is public and it's easy to retrace a Bitcoin from its beginning through the owners. Charlie Shrem from the Bitcoin foundation made the lasted event about money laundering (http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/28/5354…rest-bitinstant).


    Quote from KoKo5oVaR

    Also if banks and other investors want to destroy the business, it's always possible to create an effect of inflation and destroy the entire crypto economy by just owning them all.


    But maybe you are right Seldoon, to me it won't work if the major investors don't go into the system. But if they do, i mean, what would be the difference then ?


    They can't. The network belong anybody. Quoting me again "...the only way Bitcoin can fail is for everyone to stop using it."


    The differences are huge buddy!


    Mathematically, the specific implementation of the bitcoin protocol solves the problem of:

    - No inject new tokken.

    - No counterfeit.

    - No Divided into as small of pieces.

    - Be transferred instantly across great distances via a digital connection such as the internet.


    And all of that without trusting anyone! Amazing isn't it?


    The best known reference for Bitcoin is Gold. If you want to pay me in Gold we have to meetup physically or send a package by postal. Bitcoin do it instantly and solve this problem. Also you don't need a safe to stock and protect your money. A single USB key with the .dat file protected by a password and a crypted key. Moreover Bitcoin is easy to identify. You run your wallet you click receive. You know it's Bitcoin. If you want to pay me with Dogecoin I'll need the Dogecoin client installed with a key to receive your payment. At last compared to Gold you can easily split a Bitcoin.


    Compared to central currency Bitcoin are limited and known (Currently 12 Millions and 21 Millions around 2050). Nobody can inject money to serve their own cause like the Banks by example. No central entity control them. They are verified by miner and it's public in the blockchain.


    Keep also in mind that compared to digital centralized currency Bitcoin is anonymous and can't be frozen (Paypal frozen all payment made to Wikileak a while back). Cost less to transfer and they are send instantly.

    My problem with Bitcoin is that you are switching from a fiat currency to another fiat currency. Bitcoin right now is backed by the computational power of its network (as far as I understand), but as we all know technology doubles in power every year or so. So let's say that the banks, together with the FED and governments get pissed off and decide to launch their own cryptocurrency. They definitely have the money and power to start their own network with more computational power and completely shadow Bitcoin. If shit really hits the fan they can just use NSA datacenters to back the new cryptodollar lol


    Anyway, the value of Bitcoin right now is very speculative, everyone is basically expecting major financial institutions to adopt Bitcoin at some point but that may never happen due to the impossibility of regulating them (remember, their power is derived from being able to come up with and destroy regulations as they please). A cryptodollar becoming the norm seems more likely to me than major markets adopting bitcoin as a standard.


    My point is, I think it's too early to go "all in" on Bitcoin (unless you have a lot of money to spare), nobody knows where the hell this thing is going. It might be a good idea to buy some "just in case", but don't call that an investment, it's a bet at most.

    Yes but i mean, for the currency to work, you need people offering services for bitcoins, or people exchanging them for an applicable currency, otherwise it's useless ?


    This work by trust, people trust gold, so there is always someone to exchange your gold for services because he knows he can do something with what is in the end a rare yellow metal.


    And in the end someone still control your crypto currency very well : your electricity and your internet providers. Gold on the other hand needs to be stolen or you being physically harmed. I dunno what is safer really.


    At least no offence, it's a pretty good way to learn more about economy.

    Quote from Minos

    On 2/1/2014 at 3:47 AM, Minos said: My problem with Bitcoin is that you are switching from a fiat currency to another fiat currency.

    Minos I really like you buddy but you're wrong. Bitcoin isn't a fiat currency. Google check what is a fiat currency. Boom 2 sec. Checked.


    Quote

    Quote Fiat currency is any money declared by a government to be legal tender.

    At first Bitcoin is a protocol (something similar to credit card system with the only weakness that you can lose your password and all your token, money whatever you call it if you fall while skiing at Meribel).


    [Off-Topic]


    (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/0…EA0T21120140130) Lool

    Last year I met a young boy 13 years old at a diner. He showed me how to buy any goodies he wanted with hacked credit card. And it worked. Insane!!!


    [/Off-topic]


    If then your are talking about performance made by company such as Bit of Gold, Bitcoin-central, Coinbase, and etc about transiting $ / € / ¤ with the Bitcoin Protocol I mean yes you are switching from a fiat currency to another fiat currency. But it's doesn't mean we should invest all our money in BTC, annihilate Banks and fuck my sister.


    Quote from Minos

    On 2/1/2014 at 3:47 AM, Minos said: Bitcoin right now is backed by the computational power of its network (as far as I understand), but as we all know technology doubles in power every year or so.

    Once again no offense mate but your wrong. Whatever the power of the technology, the more people mine block, more the algorithm become complicated. It would be even more difficult to mine block with the power of a "2030 nuclear NASA seal of quality manufactured CPU" than it is right know with your current computer. The difficulty of the problem is adjusted every 2 weeks.


    Quote from Minos

    On 2/1/2014 at 3:47 AM, Minos said: So let's say that the banks, together with the FED and governments get pissed off and decide to launch their own cryptocurrency. They definitely have the money and power to start their own network with more computational power and completely shadow Bitcoin. If shit really hits the fan they can just use NSA datacenters to back the new cryptodollar lol

    No no no Thiago! If FED and governments decide to launch their own cryptopcurrency based on the Bitcoin Protocol set by Satoshi Nakamoto they won't be able to control anything unless they centralize it. It's called Dollars, Euro and such. I get what you mean but you have to keep in mind that the launch of a new cryptocurrency which could be as strong as the Bitcoin network and compete against couldn't work. See Dogecoin and etc... You can speculate on Dogecoin. I dare you to do so with BTC unless you can call the whole Venture Capital Risker fo California. Even so, those guys all together would be able to speculate on Dogecoin and the official Mapcore currency HPcoin but can't buy for a huge amount of Bitcoin in a matter of minutes and speculate easily. It's takes around 48 hours to receive a single BTC.


    Otherwise BTC isn't here to solve the privacy issues. I'm pretty sure you are a wise guy and know how to protect your own privacy.


    Quote from Minos

    On 2/1/2014 at 3:47 AM, Minos said: Anyway, the value of Bitcoin right now is very speculative, everyone is basically expecting major financial institutions to adopt Bitcoin at some point but that may never happen due to the impossibility of regulating them (remember, their power is derived from being able to come up with and destroy regulations as they please). A cryptodollar becoming the norm seems more likely to me than major markets adopting bitcoin as a standard.

    I don't mind they can't deal with it. Switching in the Bitcoin protocol instead of their system will not make them lose their power to destroy regulations. Get several glance at https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf (Third time I share that link no body read it).


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    I think it would be cool to explain the meaning of the charts.

    - People get robbed by their own government (http://news.sky.com/story/1068912/…n-bank-deposits) and BTC reach for about $1 200 USD several mouth later. What happened? Cyprus investor found trust in BTC.

    - BTC value divided at twice overnight (http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/18/bit…n-chinese-yuan/). What happened ? Let's quote!


    Quote

    Quote In order to protect the property rights and interests of the public, to protect the legal status of the Chinese yuan, to prevent money laundering risks, and to maintain financial stability, the People's Bank of China, Ministry of Information Industry, China Banking Regulatory Commission, China Securities Regulatory Commission, and China Insurance Regulatory Commission jointly issued a "Notice on guard against the risk of bitcoin".

    "Notice on guard against the risk of bitcoin." - ORLY!!!


    Such as India, France and several countries did. Nothing really special. The most interesting is that Chinese trading platform since invested more on infrastructure to trade more quantity of Bitcoin.


    Beside those two elements Bitcoin has always been stable! Whereas some who never owned a single wallet claim "It's Volatile olol9gag"!

    Quote from Minos

    On 2/1/2014 at 3:47 AM, Minos said: My point is, I think it's too early to go "all in" on Bitcoin (unless you have a lot of money to spare), nobody knows where the hell this thing is going. It might be a good idea to buy some "just in case", but don't call that an investment, it's a bet at most.

    It doesn't matter to go full Bitcoin or not. Bitcoin is much more used to buy foods, goodies. I would never own a single wallet (whatever how secure my wallet would be) full filled of money. It's a matter of how clever your are to manage your patrimony.


    You highlighted something interesting Richard! Gave the half of the answer while replying Minos. Bitcoin envision the way you consume (mostly) taxless foods, goodies and such...


    Right at the beginning I was like you guys. Asking questions to myself. But instead to read two article of newspapers I got involved more deeply in my search and found part of the answers. I still have many questions related to Minos' ones. How the hell our government will react to Bitcoin and cryptocurrency knowing that Bank and government are tied on each other. The real question is... Will the Bank accept to skip the Billion dollar market of money transfer and what would be the aftermath?

    I guess It's too small for now, so maybe it's seen as an experimentation thing, but if it becomes a largely used way to create an economy free of taxes, be sure it will be dealt with in a way or another. I don't see how it could not be. You sound really passionate about it though Alex

    Good reply You clearly know much more about Bitcoin than me, so I'll break down my points and you point out if I'm talking out of my ass or not:


    By fiat currency I mean that Bitcoin is not backed by anything physical, but by the computational power of its network.


    Since computational power doubles every few years, this means that if there's enough acceptance of any other cryptocurrency (that's also backed by the computational power of its network) Bitcoin is going to lose its value in the long run, since from what I understand, Bitcoin's value is highly dependent on the fact that its backed by the world's largest computational network. This could easily change if banks and governments decide to launch their own cryptocurrency protocol, make it highly regulated and pass a law to make it a norm. This solution seems a lot more likely to me than banks and governments just accepting something they can't control as standard. I can't remember if such a thing ever happened in the US... even the internet is controllable to some extent.


    The way currency markets work around the world is by trust. For example, the Dollar is backed by government debt and oil (petrodollar), so as long as those are going well the FED can keep printing new bills as much as they please because people will trust them anyway. But if they fuck up only once, like defaulting on a debt, that could make the entire currency extremely volatile, because people would panic after any bad news and sell their dollars as quickly as possible. At least that's how it works in every other country.


    The same could happen to Bitcoin at any time. Let's say, in a few years from now when Bitcoin is largely adopted by most people, there's a megacatastrophe somewhere (such as hurricane Katrina) and the people who depend on Bitcoin in that area aren't be able to use their bitcoins since internet access would be down. Something like that could show how cryptocurrencies are fragile and create a panic. Imagine you are in a city with a major hurricane coming your way, after hearing news like the one above the first thing you would do would be to get rid of your bitcoins, since they would be worthless anyway in such a scenario.


    I'm not talking about extinction level events that happen like every thousand years, but major catastrophes that happen every once in a while (Hurricane Sandy, Hurricane Katrina, earthquake/tsunami in Japan, Typhoons in Asia etc) that take the internet down where they hit.


    How can you trust something that can go down so easily?

    Quote from KoKo5oVaR

    I guess It's too small for now, so maybe it's seen as an experimentation thing, but if it becomes a largely used way to create an economy free of taxes, be sure it will be dealt with in a way or another. I don't see how it could not be. You sound really passionate about it though Alex

    Actually I'm not passionate at all! But as I don't like to feel screw so I managed myself the power of Nexus against this system!

    Quote from Minos

    By fiat currency I mean that Bitcoin is not backed by anything physical, but by the computational power of its network.


    So is the Internet (I was writing tone of paragraphs to explain the comparison I wanted to point out between the similarities of both networks but I'm pretty sure the idea will pop in your mind (Bubble, speculation and such) which will afford me to not write half of the bible on Mapcore). If you want me to develop feel free to ask.


    Quote from Minos

    Since computational power doubles every few years, this means that if there's enough acceptance of any other cryptocurrency (that's also backed by the computational power of its network) Bitcoin is going to lose its value in the long run, since from what I understand, Bitcoin's value is highly dependent on the fact that its backed by the world's largest computational network. This could easily change if banks and governments decide to launch their own cryptocurrency protocol, make it highly regulated and pass a law to make it a norm. This solution seems a lot more likely to me than banks and governments just accepting something they can't control as standard. I can't remember if such a thing ever happened in the US... even the internet is controllable to some extent.


    The answer is pretty simple. It would take around 20 years from now to mine the whole 21 million Bitcoin. If you compare Bitcoin with Litecoin (which use a more complex algorithm called Scrypt) for a total amount of 84 million and 16 millions active Litecoin in the network. That 30% less than Bitcoin. Every cryptopcurrency get their own rules. Get a closer look at Coingen which allow you to generate your own currency.


    So if I quote you another example it's like in Sweden you can create your own religion in a matter of minutes. It doesn't mean that this new religion will overdrive the others.


    I'll definitely answer your question about government creating their own cryptocurrency. As you can see It's pretty easy to create one. A few click and you ready to trade.

    - First Bitcoin is like the messiah people seems to have chosen as their international cryptocurrency. I trust Bitcoin. I don't trust Litecoin, Dogecoin and the other atls for now. I moved all my Litecoin to Bitcoin and I'll never give a try on Dogecoin because I know its network suck (http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/dogecoin-hack/). The Hack you see in the Dogecoin network is impossible with the Bitcoin. And even if nothing's perfect I would take the risk without any hesitation. This is like why are you taking a risk to live right in the San Andreas plate the biggest earthquake announced?

    - Then I don't mind people would rather to see such a government cryptocurrency. Like the Dogecoin the network couldn't handle hack and attack because It's really hard to build a network as strong as the Bitcoin network.

    - At last seeing the false information in circulation I think that we might wait for a long way before the government start thinking about such this idea. And I'm pretty confident that when they will wake up and confirm the importance of Bitcoin it'll be too late because another enhanced protocol or technology will be unleash in the wonder.


    At last imho I don't mind Bitcoin to be the final cryptocurrency. As I pointed above Bitcoin takes a loooooot of time to trade and such. And that is its weakness. So I would prefer waiting the startup ecosystem to find a working solution first before to assert on that topic. The only information I'm pretty sure right now is that the Bitcoin's network is pretty solid. It's the biggest one but I as said before I was quite surprising to see Dogecoin taking over Litecoin. So who knows?



    It's a pleasure to chit chat with you on serious topic. On debt of the United States you can't afford that the debt itself is bigger than you might think. The federal debt + Intergovernmental debt holdings + treasury bond + and counting... I can't remind me all the kind of debt they own but it's freak me. They even have governmental debt in governmental debt. Consider you better panic right now.


    Back on topic...


    I trust Bitcoin because I know expert approve its security, its technology, its innovation. And even if you are disappointed with them. You are free to check it out yourself. (Once again bitcoin.org/bit.. M'kay!?)


    I think that whatever the scenario if your local environment if fucked up it would be merely both the same. What will you do with your bucks if no more shopping is available? But I agree with you about "mini" desaster such as I can't pay the bill at the restaurant because my Smartphone is running out of battery. But I would prefer still have access my Bitcoin by the cloud while losing all my physical currency and credit card. A few years ago I was drunk and I lost all my stuff. Trust me. That's was pain in the ass to know I will never see back my bucks also in order to recovering my credit card. I would prefer knowing I can access my money as long as I know the cryptokey of my wallet and its password.

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