Thief 4

Quote from Furyo

I just got the game on Steam at something like 15 bucks. I'm sorry guys, but even then it's not worth my time. I know you guys worked really hard to ship this, and I am more than well aware of the rocky dev history on the title, 6 years in the making. It would have passed as an ok game with a few good ideas back before Deus Ex and Dishonored, but this feels like an alpha build. Everywhere I look, there's the start of a good idea that never got pushed further, and was just left at a "look, I can do it too" level. So much potential with that franchise too, if only....

How to fix it:

- Revamp stealing mechanic to actually make it meaningful (consequence for each item stolen, actual economy to each item)

- Remap controls and allow throwing of items/shooting while peeking

- Scrap Splinter Cell like shadow/light stealth mechanic, implement actual visibility cones a la Dishonored

- Huge task, turn it open world. The best recipe to be found for a new Thief game is on an Assassin's Creed 2 scale (not more)

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Totally agree with your first point. But I may have to disagree with your third point. It's just THE staple of the Thief franchise (it's not really a Splinter Cell mechanic in the first place). I like sneaking around from shadow to shadow. There's feels attached to that for sure.

I was thinking about open-world, but all the game needed is a more "hub-like level system" in each missions (ya know in my opinion). Linear progression isn't something that I feel fits very well the Thief universe.

Just because a mechanic is attached to a franchise doesn't mean it can't evolve in the next installments. I am fully aware it's a Thief mechanic just as much as a Splinter Cell one, but the way this was done in this game is the SC way. As in, the game doesn't revolve around it, and it therefore becomes a hindrance more than a tool the player can use. I don't believe you could achieve mass market appeal making that mechanic actually useful. That's the problem with stealth games, the people who actually want to play stealthily are not enough a target group to justify making a AAA game based on that. A large portion of players who play them don't mind feeling like they're stealthy, but want to keep going as in an action game. So give Garrett the tools to be stealthy, while keeping on the move, the same way Dishonored and Deus Ex are made. Actually Splinter Cell follows the same trend too, with Chaos Theory being the most critically acclaimed game and the only one that gave you the tools to play stealthily without going too much down the action route.

Speaking of which, downloading Blacklist now.

I've been playing Thief 4 as well... and I think the bigger problem is that, simply, it isn't a Thief game. Loot is no more an object of devout interest when it should be, there is little familiarity in the city save for the names. There is no sword or lethality, and Garrett now supposedly has a sidekick that has throughout the entire series been completely unmentioned.

There is none of that classical, almost Lovecraft-esque, creepiness that infested the three first games, which is probably the biggest minus in my book. Instead we have some enemies that are so similar to the guards you have to dodge that it feels no different than sneaking past guards. Which brings me to my next big problem: The gameplay feels very mechanically driven, rather than experience driven. Yes you can sneak around guards, but it doesn't feel like you're being sneaky. It feels like the guards are no more than obstacles on your path. There's no tension from being close to a guard (or one of those monsters for that matter) because they all just feel like bricks in a puzzle. It gets tedious if not boring after a while. Add to that the odd and mostly inexplicable patrol paths and tiring additions of needless guards as if to shoehorn some extra difficulty in. Come on.

So in summary, the game fails to live up to the Thief name. There is literally nothing from this game that has any connection to the previous games on any level but the most superficial. There is no stealing. There is no horror. There is no Garrett.

PS: Oh and no Benny.

Quote from Furyo

Just because a mechanic is attached to a franchise doesn't mean it can't evolve in the next installments. I am fully aware it's a Thief mechanic just as much as a Splinter Cell one, but the way this was done in this game is the SC way. As in, the game doesn't revolve around it, and it therefore becomes a hindrance more than a tool the player can use. I don't believe you could achieve mass market appeal making that mechanic actually useful. That's the problem with stealth games, the people who actually want to play stealthily are not enough a target group to justify making a AAA game based on that. A large portion of players who play them don't mind feeling like they're stealthy, but want to keep going as in an action game. So give Garrett the tools to be stealthy, while keeping on the move, the same way Dishonored and Deus Ex are made. Actually Splinter Cell follows the same trend too, with Chaos Theory being the most critically acclaimed game and the only one that gave you the tools to play stealthily without going too much down the action route.

Speaking of which, downloading Blacklist now.

Chaos Theory...the most critically acclaimed one AND the worst selling one.

Definitely curious to hear your thoughts on Blacklist !

I can see them having tough design meetings concerning : how to appeal to mass audience versus pleasing hardcore fans. It's why I think the game tends to feel inconsistent and awkward at certain moments. The super bombastic "everything is exploding and in flames" felt a little strange. It could've been cool but maybe not in the context of this game (it felt like cue moment to appeal to a certain demographic...).

Though I have huge respect for the devs. 5-6 years on a tough to develop project must've been pretty hard on the moral if you've been there from the beginning.

Well I'm not sure anyone from the 2007-2008 era stuck through to the end of the project. I know many leads changed twice over the course of the project.

Jobye, Chaos Theory is the worst selling one of the original 3, the franchise has done worse since

Quote from Furyo

- Scrap Splinter Cell like shadow/light stealth mechanic, implement actual visibility cones a la Dishonored

I don't remember how Dishonored worked, do you mean as far as the information given to the player on their HUD, or stealth mechanics? Thief has always relied on the player's sense of space/awareness to tell the 'visibility cone' of a guard, with the important info being the darkness level around you, especially since in T1 and T2 the graphics were muddy and 16-bit color so it was hard to tell sometimes.

The main difference is that I've seen Thief guards blatantly not see me as I'm right in front of them because I'm in full shadow. So I'm assuming (mother of all fuck ups) that shadow/light takes precedence in code to actual visibility, and it shouldn't to me. Particularly since shade/light is a "shade of grey" mechanic and not a clear black and white setting.

Play on harder difficulties then. I played on Master with all "special" abilities/mechanics removed. They will see you, to the point where it becomes painful.