Dear Light Maps !

I miss the simplicity of lightmaps

Well, for artists lightmaps are actually more complex (having to care about lightmaps, second uv sets, etc). I can see them being better for designers in some situations but generally speaking, real time solutions are better to prototype areas much faster because, well, it's real time.

What I can interpret from your post tho, chris, is that CE3 real time lighting solution developed to be overly complex (to the point where no one could do it other than a dedicated lighting artist) and everything looks pretty bland and borderline bad until someone does a proper light pass on it, whereas with lightmaps, a room with a freaking cube in the middle can look good with GI.

I guess times moved on, I just assume every artist knows how to work with them already as a given (unreal anyone?) And I actually want a level to look bland and flat before any art starts, In fact I work most of the time in flat shaded mode with shadows/crazy lights disabled

Personally I don't mind, but I do know modders will freak out with Crysis 3 lighting setup, good luck is all I can say I'd hesitate to say you spend as long messing about with real time lighting issues as you do fixing light map problems, for the same kind of cutting edge results anyway.

The real question should be, what kind of game are you making, full of interiors or vast open expanses, got forests? have a bazillion interior to exterior transitions to do?

Quote from 2d-chris

The real question should be, what kind of game are you making, full of interiors or vast open expanses?

Exactly! Each game will benefit better from one or the other.

Open world / Bigger game = Real time

Corridors = Lightmaps

Excuse my ignorance on the subject as I have had to wait for lighting compiles my entire game design life, but there is just one thing I dont understand.

How is it humanly possible to create terrible lighting when the results are right in front of your fucking face??

I mean before that ray traced acceleration software hit Vrad I had to wait 9 hours to compile some reactor maps in Lambda Core only to open it up and see the most minor thing wrong upon which I immediately hated doing anything in source.

EDIT: That compile time was also because I was using a non dual or quad core processor as well.

Quote from JeanPaul

Excuse my ignorance on the subject as I have had to wait for lighting compiles my entire game design life, but there is just one thing I dont understand.

How is it humanly possible to create terrible lighting when the results are right in front of your fucking face??

I mean before that ray traced acceleration software hit Vrad I had to wait 9 hours to compile some reactor maps in Lambda Core only to open it up and see the most minor thing wrong upon which I immediately hated doing anything in source.

Mostly because:

Quote

' timestamp='1354232528' post='317944']whereas with lightmaps, a room with a freaking cube in the middle can look good with GI.

Though I never really found baking that much of a burden compared to working with a realtime viewport or one that does approximations. Honestly, it's probably the opposite, because you just get even more obsessive and anal about shit that you really shouldn't be thinking that much about in the first place. Baking in Hammer gave me that discipline of not giving a fuck about lighting for days at a time and then doing large incremental updates and tweaks without stopping every 5 seconds. All that gets flushed down the toilet when you start throwing shit around with no delay. I really question whether it helps make things better at all or just satisfies my stupid brain. There's no question it's faster of course...

Looking a things in real time is actually a huge problem. You lose perspective within a couple of days, even if you're careful.

Hammer lighting has been a struggle for me though, to try and get the exact results I want. But somehow it seems less important as well, probably because of how pleasant baked lighting can be

Quote from 2d-chris

Personally I don't mind, but I do know modders will freak out with Crysis 3 lighting setup, good luck is all I can say I'd hesitate to say you spend as long messing about with real time lighting issues as you do fixing light map problems, for the same kind of cutting edge results anyway.

all the problems with lightmaps take waaay longer than any lighting setup in Crysis 3. Not only do the UVs mess up half the time that store the Lightmap information, but you also get weird shadow clipping where the texel resolution between two lightmap uvs changes, you can't tweak your lighting without waiting for feedback in tone etc.. Realtime lighting takes time to get right, but its no where comparable to the shit you go through with baking lights down and its also a lot more satisfactory getting feedback to WHY stuff doesnt look right, rather than guessing around.

yeah but - are you talking cinematic video capture or real time level lighting for consoles too? Half the time is optimizing - come to think of it, light maps are quite consistent in their performance, who knows the next consoles might see a rise in light map use due to more memory, or the complete opposite if the games become more dynamic.

I forget where I read it, I think somewhere in the Valve wiki, but it said for HL2 that Valve designers rarely tweaked individual lights: they just made some light presets and used those everywhere, the idea being that subtle tweaking probably isn't worth the loss in time you could've spent doing something else more important, and it'll look good enough anyway.

Or, I guess, you could slightly change the hue of a dim fill-light point-light in a giant room, and rebake repeatedly.

Anyway, that's kind of what I'm struggling with in my own process right now -- learning how to let go of small details that no one's going to notice or care about.

Quote from Campaignjunkie

Anyway, that's kind of what I'm struggling with in my own process right now -- learning how to let go of small details that no one's going to notice or care about.

I've started with making small groups of objects - a perfect composition from every side, randomized objects that can rotate a bit or disappear. I'm using those groups every time so I've thrown out the most time wasting process - adding little details. Maybe this will work fine for you? I guess there's lack of editors that support making dynamic groups, auto terrain/surface align etc.

A bit more info:

You can make such groups of lights with all the shafts/lamps/effects and use it without opening the group. It's like having a lot of LEGO bricks and use then in the environment. Take a look on my "Making of Catacombs" series of our current project. I've told a bit about adding such objects onto level. Here you go:

[Blocked Image: http://sharpenyouraxes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Building_The_Catacombs_3.jpg]

There's a screen that shows one wall with 3 different decorations. These are 3 groups with randomized elements (candles, bodies, pictures on wall) so each looks different. Make few such boxes and here you go, high detail ready. You need to find perfect solution for repeating the same all the time but don't let the player notice that... Dynamic groups are perfect for that.

Lighting in CE3 is definitely something you need to really dig into. not just for the visuals, but also the performance pain... those things get extremely expensive, very fast.

its even worse when your entire level is made of a black metal

Quote from knj

Seir sweet but the arch texture doesnt fit there imo

this post is veru useful guys, thx

Next update should have the AO bake and proper UVs.