Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

Ultimately the people are going to decide what they like and don't like, and the way to track it is incredibly simple: by watching the queue times. Time will tell.

It's also possible that the obvious roughness of some of the maps can be resolved by the authors, and thus teach them and help give them the opportunity to improve. If some people get left behind because their work never gets a chance to get played, they might never realize how much more work is needed to take their maps to the highest level, might never get the financial opportunity to take the time to fix those issues and learn from their mistakes.

Quote from tr0nic

It's not about jumping the gun on this Operation thing, you have to accept that some of the criticism might be true. And in this case, for me and to a vast crowd of players out there. Ignoring that fact is even more silly...

I know how much effort authors put on their maps, that doesn't make it an automatic classic cs map either. I myself been working on a map for over a year now, and there is still a lot of work left!

But those bugs I'm talking about are bugs that the authors should have found in the first 5 mins to 1 hour of playtest. I know my map perfectly, I could run in it eyes closed. I know 98% of the bugs.

I'm comparing the maps to CoD maps because they are, in my opinion, very noisy, hard to read and have a lot of paths (confusing layout?). This is the main problem in this current operation to me.

Blackgold: Contrast between yellows and blues is way too much with the overdone postprocess It's like my eyes are bleeding HDR. Alpha textures everywhere + structures that make visibility even harder (ultra dark textures (black beams, alpha textures turning pitch black further away). Might have a cool layout, but the minimap also makes it really hard to understand since no inaccessible area were blacked out. (you should focus on making a clear minimap asap)

Insertion: too much postprocess again, too open, well I haven't played much of that one because it's an hostage rescue.

Rush: Too much postprocess, contrast problems, noisy environments, havent played the map so can't really speak about gameplay.

Mist: Ladder + doors + 3 floor stacked onto each other = cool layout but not really competitive at all... So confusing.

Overgrown: bugs all over the place, a bit too much postprocess again. and visibility problems in a few area but other than that, my favorite map of this operation.

Castle: Visibility problems and not too much of a fan of the layout, 20+ secs rotate time depending on the route you take.

I KNOW the authors worked very hard for their projects and I'm not saying they should turn down the opportunity to be featured in a operation. I was just expecting the maps to be more "conventional cs type of maps" with Postprocess kept to a minimum, better readability and more competitive friendly since it's why it's still so popular to this day..

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I didnt mean to come off as arguing against some of the criticism, obviously some people wont like your map and have their own opinions.

Ill speak about Black Gold, since I created it.

First of all, the post process and HDR was done by Valve. If you look at BG on the steam workshop, we have it ALL turned off, even the bloom. About the readability, the T have a White T-Shirt on which, in my opinion is easy to see in the various dark textured areas in the maps. The multiple paths? Black Gold has. B long, B short, A Long, and a "Mid".

All in all though, it comes down to opinion, I wont say you're wrong for what you think. I just personally think, something like Black Gold's layout, with the abundance of vertical combat was something new and unique to CS that could or could not work in a CS map. If I wanted to make a typical CS map and have a similar art style and have it use the typical figure eight design, I could do that easily and maybe get it in an OP, but its not what Horse or I are trying to accomplish, we're trying to create something new that holds true to CS in some form or the other but in the end is unique.

Quote from FMPONE

Ultimately the people are going to decide what they like and don't like, and the way to track it is incredibly simple: by watching the queue times. Time will tell.

It's also possible that the obvious roughness of some of the maps can be resolved by the authors, and thus teach them and help give them the opportunity to improve. If some people get left behind because their work never gets a chance to get played, they might never realize how much more work is needed to take their maps to the highest level, might never get the financial opportunity to take the time to fix those issues and learn from their mistakes.

I agree, having made BG, Horse and I have learned a lot about CS level design and what people expect and what they want.

Quote from holiestcows

The multiple paths? Black Gold has. B long, B short, A Long, and a "Mid".

I'm sorry, but it's a bit weird dismissing the "multiple paths" criticism like that. Blackgold is clearly more open, interconnected and "pathy" than your typical CS GO map (and which is why the reddit post on the last page has 1300 upvotes, because there's some truth to it). This doesn't mean the map is bad or anything, it's just a different style.

Indeed. There are far more than 4 paths in that map, especially when all the routes are connected multiple times each.

heh was supprised to see mist and rush beeing chosen, they are both designed to be as unorthodox from ye good'ol cs-styled maps as possible; and I enjoy doing them lil oddies (since nobody else will) and a little "internet"-flames won't keep me from doing that

don't expect either of them to live that long - however I will keep updating them since a lot of players enjoy them!

and regarding bugs, anyone that's made a game or a level (that exceeds the size of a shobox) knows that there will always be a unknown number of bugs, but realizing that takes a certain type of character I guess

Quote from Puddy

I'm sorry, but it's a bit weird dismissing the "multiple paths" criticism like that. Blackgold is clearly more open, interconnected and "pathy" than your typical CS GO map (and which is why the reddit post on the last page has 1300 upvotes, because there's some truth to it). This doesn't mean the map is bad or anything, it's just a different style.

I'm not trying to dismiss it entirely. For terrorist taking B, there are two main paths to take, which will split into two more. There are literally, only 4 paths to take to get to Bombsite B, unless you go through A to B, but the same can be done on any other map. They all merge together. Also i'm sorry, I didnt mean to make it seem like BG is not more open and more fast paced then any other map, I completely agree that its one of the more obscured map in CS and having it be as small as it is, really makes that stand out.

I don't get the complaints about BG's complexity either tbh. It only takes a couple of matches to learn it, which seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd even go so far as to say that it's quite simple once you understand it, because the player is usually moving forward or sideways so there's barely any backtracking. Basically if you go forward from either spawn you'd have to be a bit of a dink to miss one of the bombsites. Sightlines are slightly more complex than traditional CS maps, but this is balanced by plenty of cover (unlike a certain other map in the pack ) so it just promotes more stealthy play.

I think overall it is a good operation, but I do agree that more bugs could have been ironed out. It's easy to forget that the previous op consisted entirely of maps from previous operations, and that pretty much all of them underwent some tweaking (possibly with the exception of Cache?), so I expect a lot of the current issues will either be fixed or players will adapt to them.

When I make a map, I do it for me, not for other mainly. I think the workshop sometimes, but it is not what makes me happy.

But, It's really strange some very good maps are not on this operation (Marquis ? where are you ?)

Quote from holiestcows

more and more people are growing fund of it and enjoy playing it for its unique style and design.

Quote from holiestcows

his favorite map, due to its unique layout

Quote from holiestcows

with the abundance of vertical combat was something new and unique to CS

What did i just read ???

Quote from holiestcows

If I wanted to make a typical CS map and have a similar art style and have it use the typical figure eight design

But ... That's exactly what you made ! oO (the figure of 8 layout)

I don't know, i mean... I like your map guys, it's outstanding, the graphics are amazing and your assets are awesome. But please don't tell us that your layout is so unique and that you have worked so much on it. You don't need to be a pro level designer to understand that your layout started from a flat square and you have put containers and square buildings on it to start it up. It's classic and there isn't that much verticality in your gameplay (just catwalks and few things).

I don't think it's that difficult to understand the layout, people will get it and will like it, for sure. The main thing that tr0nic is pointing at are the noisy things everywhere, it's not just about the textures but the way you have put things in the map (will small gaps and details that can ruin the visibility).

Also you can easily find many overlaps of models/textures, and this kind of thing annoy me a lot :

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Lots of things are flying in the air.

Quote from holiestcows

Who knows, maybe Overgrown becomes a classic and is added into the game officially.

???? Wtf, you really can't know the game and its community, sorry but it's so far from truth i don't even know how you can say something like that.

Anyway, the maps are great really, good job. And yes fmpone, we all know what it is to work on a map for real, you don't have to say how bad we are because we don't reach the "the highest level" ... seriously man wtf, it's really not nice, I hope that I do not understand right

Since the talk is about BG right now, i'd like to share my thoughts about the map. Imho one of the keyfeatures a map should have, is the balance between both teams. As far as i can say, BG has it. The competitive MM matches i had on the map (~10) were more or less very balanced. Some matches ended up high for CTs and some other matches ended up high for the T side. The rest of the matches had a close end.

This leads me directly to the layout. I just can't say it's bad, if you look at the balance. Since this is what defines the balance for the biggest part. Personally, i think the layout is quite simple, as you already mentioned. And i like simple layouts.

Talking about the layout, i think the map is fairly small. To make it feel not that small, there is the 2nd floor which adds some variation to the routes. Vertical Gameplay may be not the most popular game feature about Counter Strike, but the map handles it pretty good.

But i also have to offer some criticism. Imho the key problem of the map is the readibility. There is almost an unlimited amount of pipes and railings which make it extremely hard to see the enemies. It doesn't help, that almost all containers and pipes are yellow. The most frustrating moments i had, was when i got killed by someone i din't even see. If you look at the most popular maps right now, there's Dust2, Inferno and Cache. All of these maps have a very good readibility which makes them really pleasant to play on.

I don't want to be mean, but i think that the map needed some criticism.

When i'm playing BG in Casual or Deathmatch, it does make a lot of fun. Because of the 2nd floor, you can be a sneaky beaky like ninja assassin

BTW: How long did you both work on the map? It looked like extremely time consuming when i had a "detail walk" around the map.

leplubodeslapin, I am sorry, but I really don't understand what you're trying to say.

Quote from El_Exodus

Since the talk is about BG right now, i'd like to share my thoughts about the map. Imho one of the keyfeatures a map should have, is the balance between both teams. As far as i can say, BG has it. The competitive MM matches i had on the map (~10) were more or less very balanced. Some matches ended up high for CTs and some other matches ended up high for the T side. The rest of the matches had a close end.

This leads me directly to the layout. I just can't say it's bad, if you look at the balance. Since this is what defines the balance for the biggest part. Personally, i think the layout is quite simple, as you already mentioned. And i like simple layouts.

Talking about the layout, i think the map is fairly small. To make it feel not that small, there is the 2nd floor which adds some variation to the routes. Vertical Gameplay may be not the most popular game feature about Counter Strike, but the map handles it pretty good.

But i also have to offer some criticism. Imho the key problem of the map is the readibility. There is almost an unlimited amount of pipes and railings which make it extremely hard to see the enemies. It doesn't help, that almost all containers and pipes are yellow. The most frustrating moments i had, was when i got killed by someone i din't even see. If you look at the most popular maps right now, there's Dust2, Inferno and Cache. All of these maps have a very good readibility which makes them really pleasant to play on.

I don't want to be mean, but i think that the map needed some criticism.

When i'm playing BG in Casual or Deathmatch, it does make a lot of fun. Because of the 2nd floor, you can be a sneaky beaky like ninja assassin

BTW: How long did you both work on the map? It looked like extremely time consuming when i had a "detail walk" around the map.

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Horse and I both put in over 200 hours into working on Black Gold.

Anyway, i'm sorry, I really didn't mean to come off as a diva or anything, i'm not trying to make this about BG or blow off any CC I receive towards it, I just used BG as an example first hand when talking about the OP because I made it. All in all I can say that this OP has some more unique maps seen in CS then prior. With that comes things that may or may not work. I don't think anyone is being mean by the way by pointing out that BG is very yellow or is very noisy, so don't feel bad El_Exodus

The point is, yeah the maps will have some bugs and stuff, but until you've had x number of people play your stuff and critique it (sometimes loudly) you're not going to be used to that level of scrutiny. If I'm not mistaken, only Oskar has had his stuff in an Operation before, so it's not surprising to see like "outside the level" bugs and stuff like that getting squashed. The next level by all these authors will probably not have such issues, so it's raising the level of quality that much higher. Not to mention just learning stuff about layouts, what people would prefer, etc. Being an Operation is for sure going to help all of these authors improve that much more, and incentivize them to make more good levels. This is what I mean by highest quality, it's making the best level out of what you have, not including any bugs, polishing the gameplay. There is no "right way to make a map", so I wouldn't suggest there is.

As for BG, yeah the readability is my biggest complaint, but it's still fun. There were also some griefing rounds when I played, of people getting underneath the level, but I think it's one of the better maps in the pack.

Also not to take anything away from this discussion, which you guys managed to keep it honest and pretty civil, but let's remember to keep Mapcore a safe place for mappers. We're all just trying our best after all, but I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone that.

Yet again, all of the maps in the Operation were by our own folks. Can't lose sight of that shit... Mapcore schwing

Delivering a map without bugs is (almost) 100% impossible, unless you deliver a shoebox, as Mr. P said.

Even VALVe is still updating their maps after so many years. Here's the latest update for de_inferno (I know, these are not bug fixes, but the point is that it's hard to call a map "finished"):

Quote

- Inferno:

– General graphical updates.– Thinner pillars underneath trellis in CT spawn.– Thinner pillars on awning in Alt Mid.– Added lights to balcony in Alt Mid.– Fixed some spots where C4 could get stuck.– Removed pretty flowers behind yellow car in banana.– Added a ton of flowers in other areas to compensate.– Calmed down dog in apartments.– Removed tree boost spots.– Added a chickencoop to T spawn.– Changed max chicken population from 10 to 12.– Added back relaxing flamenco music to T spawn.– Updated the skybox.– It is now possible to shoot through the box in the middle of Bombsite A.

I'm enjoying the new maps in the Operation so far. They are indeed a bit differerent than the causal figure-8 level, but I'm glad VALVe is accepting stuff like that. There's litterally thousands of levels on the workshop, it's cool to see that VALVe is accepting "new and experimental" stuff.

It's a bit weird why they didn't accept 2 more maps, because there are so many great maps out there, like de_marquis, de_tulip, de_reef, de_print, ...

Big rofls.

Valve is pushing both cobblestone and overpass, and removing train, into the compete map pool for ESL One (with 250k prizepool). Just a little more than a month before the event. Competitive players are gonna get a serious case of butthurt. Overpass is definitely getting "there" after being iterated upon, but I have to seriously question Cobblestone.

http://www.eslgaming.com/news/new-map-p…go-championship

The veto system is better though!

Read the chat

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lol, some people take the game a little to serious.

Urgh. This is why if I ever make a successful map I'm going to get a second account, so I don't have to deal with douchbags like Chris [heart] up there. It's a shame, but most players will just never understand the amount of passion and energy that goes in to creating the worlds they run around in.

Then again, I hate Cobblestone and Valve should probably kill itself?

People find you personally responsible for ruining their lives. Maybe people are being too close-minded on what to expect from operation maps, if something is different they equate it to being bad. Not that I'm in any postition to give this sort of advice, but part of you should enjoy the attention, and the other part should just ignore it. This of course doesn't apply to valid criticisms.

Haters gonna hate.

Oh im not in anyway complaining, or even remotely affected, I thought it was just really funny on how upset this man was. He said kill your self, because he doesn't like my map, thats just too funny.