What are you playing now?

    Quote from Taylor

    I’m against dropping them because of the practical limitations of pad real-estate, but also because they have great gameplay benefits: entering takes time and removes your other options, thus forcing prediction over reaction.

    i am sure you could find better alternatives than not changing the controls...

    Quote from Jetsetlemming

    Speaking of L4D2, a scrim I participated in drunk off my ass (as well as two other members of my team also inebriated in some manner) about three weeks ago was just uploaded to Youtube. It was a great game full of high level play and totally respectful and appropriate commentary and demeanor.

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    This is amazing! I miss having a bunch of good folks to play a good co-op with

    Hey insta, I have a big large box of nothing for sale. Its normally $10,000, but I'll let you have it for the low low price of only $1,000 - that's 90% off! ACT NO(W!!!~~

    Quote from Sentura

    i am sure you could find better alternatives than not changing the controls...

    Honestly, I was never into Capcom fighting games in a big way, and when Street Fighter 4 was first announced I ran my mouth to some design-minded friends of mine about how it should drop the medium-strength buttons and have a special button that worked through a single directional press for accessibility. They called me an idiot and went back to work. On reflection they were completely right and I feel kind of embarrassed for thinking that way, perhaps you will too once you get more into the genre.

    SF4 has done a great job of being accessible. They purposely forgot half the mechanics of Street Fighter Alpha and Street Fighter 3, went back to basics and then made those basics more basic. Motions are easier than ever, you’re given free comebacks ultra attacks for losing, reversal windows are massive, throws are commands and easy to tech, damage scaling wards off huge combos, etc. It’s certainly much easier to play than the old SNES version for instance.

    Perhaps Ultras could've had an easier input but I'm not sure what. I would've prefered A-ism to Super and Ultra bars anyway, but what can you do? Capcom are making enough money to release a new fighter every minute so Joe Average must get by.

    i have been weighing up the decisions, and i have thought long and hard about this before formulating my argument. whether or not street fighter 4 has done things more basic, i still don't see why it hasn't done perhaps what matters most: the controls. the point that made my stand clear was the continuous frustration by having the analogue stick movement not performing the intended action. and it wasn't that it happened just once in a while, it happened often enough for me to rage about a few stages into the arcade mode campaign.

    the reason why i think it's the most important part is that the controller should be your friend; it should perform the actions you desire WHEN you desire them. it should not act like an additional obstacle that is "part of the game", that players need to tackle and understand in order to move up the skill ladder. and a game that does exactly that, to me, is just badly designed. any fool can make a game with an obnoxious skill cap that only 0.1% of all people would ever attain, but i'd like to think it takes some thoughtfulness and skill to create a well balanced game where even the players that aren't usually able to play still can play a game to a degree. i don't mind high skill caps, i love games that incorporate them - because it adds depth. but changes like those need to be small and subtle in order to create the desired balance, and not stand in the way of the core gameplay, like they do in street fighter.

    The Six-Axis has one of the best directional pads and I’d strongly advise using that over the analogue stick.

    I think the difference is simply that I don’t think motions are that hard, although I agree that if you’ve never entered one before they are tricky at first. Then again so is doing an optimum build order in Starcraft, but nobody is calling out for an alternative process to skip obnoxious base building (are they?).

    I’ve explained some reasons why I think motions are important: controller real-estate and the motion itself cutting off other options during the time it takes to be entered. But I do think an execution requirement is a good thing, if everyone could just pick up Marvel and

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    it’d be pretty stale.I agree that games should not provide artificial barriers but disagree this is what motions are. I’m going to quote a post I made on another forum for an example:

    Quote from Taylor

    It’s actually j.8D~A but that’s probably what you meant since 8D isn’t an input. Easiest way to start it is off 5B, 6A and it’s probably the best way to practice.

    You jump cancel forwards then j.8D when you’re considered in the air (if you’re going horizontal it’s too early), wait until you hit them then press A to drop down, then jump again and repeat. You can pretty much hold 9 for the entire sequence. Off 6A you’re looking at 2-3 reps depending on the character mid-screen and 3 for everyone in the corner. If you want more reps you’re going to have to dash between the reps when you’re on the ground, allowing up to 5, but this is a lot of hassle and you’re not actually getting that much damage from it - so even some Japanese players don’t bother (5th rep is 100).

    Once you’ve done the reps you need to do the finisher. It’s 2D~C, j.8D, j.5D~6, j.C, j.8D~6, j.3D~6, 236BBBBB. That last B hit is 450 minimum damage so a big deal.

    A problem area here is the first j.8D, because if you air jump after your 2D~C it will take up one of your jumps and your next j.8D~6 will be a j.5D~6 instead, dropping the combo, so make sure you don’t hold upwards for this bit. The j.C timing also varies depending on character and if you're missing the j.8D~6 after you probably need to delay it more. Jin and Platinum (see above!) are particularly fickle.

    Other starters include: 5B, 3C, 236A, 5D~B, 5C, (j.8D~A) for big damage but you have to be very deep for the 3C, 236A to combo on hit; j.5D~B CH, 5C (delay the 5C until they're over your head); 4B+C, 5B, 5C; and j.B+C, 5B, 5C.

    This gobbledygook is pretty much a requirement for playing this character. If your strategy is perfect but you don’t know what the hell I just said you are trash with this character. And even though land this in tournaments consistently, I still think it’s bloody stupid and the game really needs to place less emphasis on this and more on the actual game-part between. But entering an ultra? As Yang you roll your thumb twice and press a shoulder button to do half their life bar in damage. I, personally, have no problem with that requirement.

    first off, i tried using the d-pad, but it's even more unstable than the analogue stick. as for starcraft - alternative build orders don't require to use tricky controls to create them.

    i agree with you that controls shouldn't be too easy, but instead of using directional buttons in strange fashions (i.e. f90, 180 270 or the zigzag that you need for dragon/anti air move), you could use alternative buttons or incorporate dashes as part of the move. i also don't think that people will be able to do the combos in the video you posted, mostly because the one thing that IS balanced in street fighter is the combo system, and the timing needed to perform them. i even think that borderline insane moves like FADC are ok at higher levels of play, because it balances out skill and cost.

    my point is still that using analogue motions as (opposed to single directional buttons or even dashes combined with attack buttons) is a no go with the sensitivity that normal pads or sticks have. this doesn't mean that some combos shouldn't take time to get into (you could make the same combos appropriately long with a different button set), and it doesn't mean that the button set doesn't have to be a bit tricky, but make it into finger remembrance rather than doing finger rollerskating. there needs to be at least 95% chance to perform the desired action, and street fighter doesn't do this. i find this strange, especially since games like tekken already have figured out that there is a problem with this exact use of controls, and thus they don't do them (or at least not often enough to matter). this may also have something to do with the movesets for tekken characters are vastly larger than street fighter characters, which means there are both a ton of moves easy to perform and a ton that are hard to perform, and either are valuable to have in an arsenal.

    as for the last bit, picture this: the way you think about that game is the same way i think about street fighter. and that you have no problem with this requirement is only fine because you are above that skill level (or you have one of those proper controllers). as a designer, you also need to look past yourself when doing balance; and you especially need to remember that there will always be people that can do less than you and people that will do more than you.

    I think I’m arguing on two fronts here.

    As a designer I appreciate the way Street Fighter 4 has handled accessibility and see how it could introduce even more through simple execution modes, better tutorials, better mission modes, and a story mode that slowly introduces game concepts if need be.


    As a player I think this compromise has made it a weaker game than others in the series and, while I think some games are too lopsided in terms of execution, people who can’t input basic moves need to man up.

    ... or the control system needs to be adjusted for the specific consoles in general, so you don't only have one system that works with arcade sticks. again, there's no need for the controller to be the enemy of the player, manning up or not.

    I don’t know why you think you need an arcade stick to play Street Fighter. I know a ton of players that play on pad. My main sparring partner and one of the best players I know plays on sixaxis.

    At a rough count series staple Ryu can, from a neutral state (including jumping), access 47 attacks (6 take a resource). What console-orientated control scheme retains this flexibility?

    You mention making specials into Raging Demon inputs instead but I disagree this helps. There is a reason moves with no resource don’t take a Raging Demon input and why all moves on a Raging Demon input are (mechanically) throws. And I disagree Raging Demon’s are easier anyway, in fact even as a long term player of this series it’s still an input I have to pause the game and check.

    if you did them every day, it would sit in your finger or your head by now. i know it does for me. i have to look up every move for every other character though, because of the subtle difference of f-90 x2 or b-90 x2 or whether it's 3x punch or 3x kick. that's another thing: why not just make them all the same, instead of these subtle differences?

    Usually if the attack uses upper body it's the punch buttons, otherwise it's kicks. The motion itself usually matches the animation in some way, so fireballs brings his hands forwards, hurricane kick spin backwards, dragon punches duck down and spring, etc.

    There are exceptions, of course, and some are stupid. Mainly on Ultra 2's where the existing ultra motion is already taken.

    Played a game made by a buddy of mine here at work:

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    Fun but quite quick to beat.... but hey for 0,99 its certainly worth it. http://itunes.apple.com/app/plump/id443837882?mt=8

    Quote from Taylor

    Usually if the attack uses upper body it's the punch buttons, otherwise it's kicks. The motion itself usually matches the animation in some way, so fireballs brings his hands forwards, hurricane kick spin backwards, dragon punches duck down and spring, etc.There are exceptions, of course, and some are stupid. Mainly on Ultra 2's where the existing ultra motion is already taken.

    so basically you're saying there's no reason there should be any specific button input for any ultra?

    i just returned from a session, and while i remember, let me list and rebut things that are just bad design choices:

    - frame based moves instead of time based

    - controller movements (ultra or non ultra) that are too much alike (trying to make one will chance that might make the other)

    - cancelling into and out of pretty much every move with no cooldown (fadc or just dc), making long combos inevitable. it's especially possible on people who have just gotten up.

    - grab length not the same for all characters (i could overlook this if there was a grab priority so that grabs could cancel out easier)

    - difficult controller movement that requires years of mastery (maybe you friend can do it fine and the sixaxis isn't the worst controller for ssfiv, but that doesn't mean it's good enough)

    - ultras/supers differ on each character for no good reason (it's basically negated if the other ultra doesn't follow the same goddamn rules)

    - ranged battles that have little reason to exist except on maybe 1 character.

    - anti air moves ALSO work on the ground, making them the definite choice of move rather than have various defenses for various actions

    - bad hit boxes on some moves/hits where it doesn't make sense (ties in with grab range)

    - backdash does not have priority over attack moves

    in addition to that, you said there were 47 different moves that ryu or whoever could do from neutral position. do me a favor and check the moves list for every goddamn tekken character in the newer ones, and tell me if there's more or less than 47. also explain to me why tekken can do combos simpler (pretty much follow what i said) while street fighter insists on being a relic of the past with its arcade centered controls.

    every time i play this game, i'm getting more and more pissed that these simple goddamn things aren't in place.

    Kinda all over the place at the moment.

    Playing Child of Eden with Kinect, pretty good fun but fairly hard as well. My arms hurt.

    Dead Nation on PSN, excellent top-down zombie shooter, one of the best downloadable games I've played in a while.

    DiRT 3, brilliant game!

    Witcher 2 is good, but I'm having a real hard time pulling myself together and playing it at the moment.

    Still playing Swords & Sworcery on the iPhone once in a while, slowly creeping through it.

    Then I finished Infamous 2 last week, excellent game, one of my favorites so far this year.

    Plus playing through L.A. Noire again, and planning on checking out the DLC when I'm done.

    Also looking forward to Trenched, hope they finally decide to release it in Europe sometime soon

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