Cypress

[Noodle King]

The work in progress forum for my map Cypress has been up here for a while, but now I've come out with the full release! I may still make small changes, since you can never stop improving, but Cypress has become a pretty polished product. Comments and feedback are still welcome, and I hope you enjoy!

Workshop: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1087670866

Title Image and Radar:

More Images:

Spoiler

 

[Guni]

Congratulations on the release, Ill take a run around later

[Noodle King]

Thank you very much!

[Oliver]

I highly advice you to take another look at your prop placement. It looks like the map consists of elements from every map in the game currently. I see Nuke, Train, Inferno, Overpass, Canals, and even Neutron (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=485441486&searchtext=de_neutron <- this one). 

It's perfectly fine to take inspiration from other maps, but there's a huge mismatch on the thematic aspect of your map. A lot of the prop placement makes no sense. Here's a list of the things I've found by running about for a few minutes:

You are using a ceiling tile holder as a floor texture, and if that isn't enough there's a road surface marking underneath it. Also a pile of papers and a bucket in the corners

 

It looks like you copy-pasted a row of props from de_nuke_zoo and placed them on this wall for some reason.

They built this biochemical research facility right on top of a cafe, but couldn't be bothered to remove a boat on the ceiling?

Normally before construction takes place its normal practice to completely remove old structures and then start building. Stuff like this is all over the map and it doesn't work.

This is a prime example of bad signposting, the arrows point in all directions, and its not leading the player anywhere. There's also so much clutter in the area making the decal hard to spot.

Theres so much stuff here, its giving me a headache. 

---

You have some solid composition in the brushwork, and the layout seems functional so its not all bad. 

To sum up, here's how you can drastically improve the look of this map:

- Clean up the map, remove every prop related to Train, Inferno, Overpass and Canals and stick to one theme! I recommend something similar to Nuke.

- When you place props think about how it would make sense in a real environment

- Don't place props wherever there's space.

- Keep it simple!! 

[Noodle King]

 

26 minutes ago, Oliver said:

I highly advice you to take another look at your prop placement. It looks like the map consists of elements from every map in the game currently. I see Nuke, Train, Inferno, Overpass, Canals, and even Neutron (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=485441486&searchtext=de_neutron <- this one). 

It's perfectly fine to take inspiration from other maps, but there's a huge mismatch on the thematic aspect of your map. A lot of the prop placement makes no sense. Here's a list of the things I've found by running about for a few minutes:

You are using a ceiling tile holder as a floor texture, and if that isn't enough there's a road surface marking underneath it. Also a pile of papers and a bucket in the corners

 

It looks like you copy-pasted a row of props from de_nuke_zoo and placed them on this wall for some reason.

They built this biochemical research facility right on top of a cafe, but couldn't be bothered to remove a boat on the ceiling?

Normally before construction takes place its normal practice to completely remove old structures and then start building. Stuff like this is all over the map and it doesn't work.

This is a prime example of bad signposting, the arrows point in all directions, and its not leading the player anywhere. There's also so much clutter in the area making the decal hard to spot.

Theres so much stuff here, its giving me a headache. 

---

You have some solid composition in the brushwork, and the layout seems functional so its not all bad. 

To sum up, here's how you can drastically improve the look of this map:

- Clean up the map, remove every prop related to Train, Inferno, Overpass and Canals and stick to one theme! I recommend something similar to Nuke.

- When you place props think about how it would make sense in a real environment

- Don't place props wherever there's space.

- Keep it simple!! 

You're right there are lots of thing's that may not belong. However, it is not completely wrong to have props from multiple maps inside one level, some things can coexist. Others, some of which you brought up, don't. I recognize this, but at this point, I'm not going to redo over half of the map to create a nuke clone. The points you brought up have been said to me many times over the last few months, and I know they are valid points. Thanks for your input, I'll be sure to consider it when creating new levels or improving Cypress

Edited July 24, 2017 by Noodle King

[Oliver]

Quote

it is not completely wrong to have props from multiple maps inside one level, some things can coexist.

Some of the buildings are architecturally wrong, and you are mixing buildings from one corner of the world to the other. Its alright to use props from multiple maps, but make sure they actually fit as a whole.

Anyway, good luck with the map, I hope to see some improvements soon 

[Noodle King]

18 hours ago, Oliver said:

Some of the buildings are architecturally wrong, and you are mixing buildings from one corner of the world to the other. Its alright to use props from multiple maps, but make sure they actually fit as a whole.

Anyway, good luck with the map, I hope to see some improvements soon 

As I said in the original post, I will make small changes, but I'm not going to rethink half the map. Sorry if that disappoints you.

Edited July 25, 2017 by Noodle King

[Oliver]

alright man 

[blackdog]

On 25/07/2017 at 0:26 AM, Noodle King said:

some things can coexist. Others, some of which you brought up, don't. I recognize this, but at this point, I'm not going to redo over half of the map to create a nuke clone. The points you brought up have been said to me many times over the last few months, and I know they are valid points.

This is some weird contradiction :-| if you've been told for months to address the clutter you can't really say "at this point"... also not sure people that have spent time to accurately give feedback so you can improve, will want to do same in the future, knowing you are not inclined to make changes.

I dunno, is a real shame you won't polish this, as pointed out there are some good things in the map, looking at the screens I was gping to say that the theme is not consistent and there are main structures that don't make sense ("nuke meets mirage?") but taken singularly, I was liking certain angles/rooms.

[Rad]

Map is looking great,detailed,polished and everything ,but it doesnt feel like a real place ,many buildings are architecturally wrong.

I have seen wrong use of some textures and props,you need a story for your map,and strong theme,you can mix old and new but not this way.

Too many props,remove most of them,reasons optimization and gameplay.

If someone asked me where is your map taking place,is it nuclear facility,factory i wouldnt be able to tell from screenshots.

Overall you have a talent,did a great job in some parts but you need to rethink some things.

[SuicidalFennec]

Hey Noodle King, I've seen a lot of people comment about how you're map takes place in a weird setting and that you mix and match props from maps into yours and the result is a great looking map but a poor theme. I'm here to recommend a different solution to your problem. You could try to make a place up, invent a location that doesn't exist but utilize props in a way that it makes it feel like a real place. There's nothing wrong with borrowing props, everyone does it to some degree. The problem is not thinking about the world and what purpose your prop has in it. Just another solution to the problem you're facing, also it doesn't bother me personally that the theme of the map is all over. To me, it's more important how the map plays than how it looks. Good luck on your map, ty for your feedback on mine, and I hope you are able to improve the map from my feedback. 

[Noodle King]

12 hours ago, blackdog said:

This is some weird contradiction :-| if you've been told for months to address the clutter you can't really say "at this point"... also not sure people that have spent time to accurately give feedback so you can improve, will want to do same in the future, knowing you are not inclined to make changes.

I dunno, is a real shame you won't polish this, as pointed out there are some good things in the map, looking at the screens I was gping to say that the theme is not consistent and there are main structures that don't make sense ("nuke meets mirage?") but taken singularly, I was liking certain angles/rooms.

I said right from the get go, on this page that I will make small changes. I've been developing Cypress for a very long time, and I'm starting to move on to other things. I'm still updating it by fixing bugs and game play issues, but I'm not in a place where I want to change half the map. I'm not denying or contradicting any of the feedback given to me. It's right and I know that, but I'm just plainly not going to overhaul half the map cause some people, (A very small minority) do not like the theme mixing. Like all art, it is still subjective, and while I see the valid points behind the themes not mixing well, it's just not worth the time and effort to change in my opinion. I will, however, use all the great feedback from Cypress and utilize it with future projects. In fact, I'm already doing this :p. Hopefully you can understand where I'm coming from here

10 hours ago, RAD said:

Map is looking great,detailed,polished and everything ,but it doesnt feel like a real place ,many buildings are architecturally wrong.

I have seen wrong use of some textures and props,you need a story for your map,and strong theme,you can mix old and new but not this way.

Too many props,remove most of them,reasons optimization and gameplay.

If someone asked me where is your map taking place,is it nuclear facility,factory i wouldnt be able to tell from screenshots.

Overall you have a talent,did a great job in some parts but you need to rethink some things.

I actually fixed some of the things you brought up in the most current update. I changed some of the textures that were really triggering people, and It really does look better. There is a story for the map, go to the workshop description, it's all there. In the most recent update I removed a lot of clutter that really didn't have to be there. I think it makes that map look a lot cleaner and readable. For anyone who's wondering, I do still care about Cypress and it's development, and I am still working on it.

2 hours ago, FizzyPhysics said:

Hey Noodle King, I've seen a lot of people comment about how you're map takes place in a weird setting and that you mix and match props from maps into yours and the result is a great looking map but a poor theme. I'm here to recommend a different solution to your problem. You could try to make a place up, invent a location that doesn't exist but utilize props in a way that it makes it feel like a real place. There's nothing wrong with borrowing props, everyone does it to some degree. The problem is not thinking about the world and what purpose your prop has in it. Just another solution to the problem you're facing, also it doesn't bother me personally that the theme of the map is all over. To me, it's more important how the map plays than how it looks. Good luck on your map, ty for your feedback on mine, and I hope you are able to improve the map from my feedback. 

Thanks for the advice, you're right for sure. There are things that don't belong in a ultra realistic setting within Cypress, and this upsets some people more than others. It's impossible to make everyone happy, basically. I have come up with a plausible story that merges the two themes together. If anyone cares to look closely at the map and read the story on the workshop page they will find the themes aren't as outlandish as they may first think. It may not make a lot of sense as a real place, but It still makes sense. Thanks for your feedback

[blackdog]

@Noodle King of course you will do what you feel with the map. I think is great that you are seeing an immediate improvement implementing  suggestions you received!

Because of the terminology you are using ("triggering, upsetting") I think you are reading too much into the feedback, is not like anyone said "I want to poke my eyes off"  also apologies if I didn't add any particular suggestion, but all was said already, I just wanted to reinforce that it wasn't only those people thinking this early things.

Here I just wanted to clarify what I mean with contradiction. You are saying "I don't want to make big changes now", but you admitted you had comments about the theme already a long while back. People wouldn't comment on it now if you had worked on the theme when you were first prompted about it, or would be suggestions on little changes.

Apologies for dragging the reply, but I can't read the "art" argument. Personally I object to the "small sample of people who complain", I'm not sure where else you posted, but this is a forum with lots of professionals of the industry, I think their input is more valuable than gamers; people "like" aim_ maps with dev textures, so… draw your own conclusion.

What you do is Map Design, all the lighting and modelling might fall under "environmental art" umbrella, but we are still talking about architecture, placement of items of daily life etc: all stuff that ultimately has to be functional to be believable, this is not a painting, this is still "design" – maybe an artist like @[HP] can correct me if I'm wrong. 

Best of luck with the release ✌?

Edited July 29, 2017 by blackdog

[Noodle King]

8 hours ago, blackdog said:

@Noodle King of course you will do what you feel with the map. I think is great that you are seeing an immediate improvement implementing  suggestions you received!

Because of the terminology you are using ("triggering, upsetting") I think you are reading too much into the feedback, is not like anyone said "I want to poke my eyes off"  also apologies if I didn't add any particular suggestion, but all was said already, I just wanted to reinforce that it wasn't only those people thinking this early things.

Here I just wanted to clarify what I mean with contradiction. You are saying "I don't want to make big changes now", but you admitted you had comments about the theme already a long while back. People wouldn't comment on it now if you had worked on the theme when you were first prompted about it, or would be suggestions on little changes.

Apologies for dragging the reply, but I can't read the "art" argument. Personally I object to the "small sample of people who complain", I'm not sure where else you posted, but this is a forum with lots of professionals of the industry, I think their input is more valuable than gamers; people "like" aim_ maps with dev textures, so… draw your own conclusion.

What you do is Map Design, all the lighting and modelling might fall under "environmental art" umbrella, but we are still talking about architecture, placement of items of daily life etc: all stuff that ultimately has to be functional to be believable, this is not a painting, this is still "design" – maybe an artist like @[HP] can correct me if I'm wrong. 

Best of luck with the release ✌?

Maybe I could have clarified more, I didn't actually release Cypress until it was in beta. By then, the art pass was pretty much done. Since then I made lots of changes, but changing the theme just never was one of them. Also, sorry if it would appear that i'm taking this personally, I know that the people here are a tough crowd that will point out whats wrong with a map and won't hesitate to make their opinion known. Which is good ya know, someones gotta tell you whats wrong, otherwise you would just think its all OK and the map would never get any better. Since i first did post Cypress on here, it has improved massively thanks to feedback that I've gotten from Mapcore. No hard feelings, I hope we can still love each other in a weird detached sort of way, thanks for the feedback