Posts by RD

  • The root of all evil: the human being itself?

    Quote from mawibse

    See it like this; there are unconscious reasons for you to have some uncontrolled thoughts popping into your consciousness, however once they entered consciousness you have some control over the thoughts and might use them as basis for a conscious decision or as a veto for some physical activity.

    Think of it as a golf player that makes several swings before getting a go from your consciousness before hitting the ball.

    In order to have some control over the thoughts, there must be something that has this control. If there is conscious control over your thoughts, it needs logical reasoning, which in itself is a string of thoughts. But youre not conscious of where the string begins.

    Wheres Daan0 with the proof?

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from The Postman

    That's your opinion. You're welcome to it. However, the re-printings of the article in the face of largely peaceful protest (with a few extremists thrown in) was just antagonistic and yes, childish. The discourse offered by them was two dimensional (no pun intended), very offensive to the entire religion and not a good way of getting an intelligent argument going. I think we can at least agree that the cartoon was that.

    I live here, you dont. I know my country, the papers, everthing, you dont. You are not giving us the benefit of the doubt because you are projecting your negative emotions on us. You are making the accusation, the burden of proof lies at you

    After we saw what happened to Denmark, we still printed them. Do you know many ppl who consciously play with their lifes for laughs and giggles?

    Quote

    My solution of getting their people to realize that they need to rise up and better themselves is proven false? Oh my RD you're going to have to back that one up with some major longterm statistics and articles about the Middle East and her peoples, because you see, I was talking about the Middle East, not Europe. Re-read my post again.

    First of all, your solution is a dream and secondly it is not a solution.

    You give no explanation how to get them to rise up. You might actually begin communicating to me on my level when you give that solution. I gave one, which you have ignored like most of my points. Kedrin gave the same one.

    All cultures and religions have gone thru periods of clashing with the world around them. The only reason they adapt is because they are continuously confronted with it and really have no other choice but to adapt. Either that, or self destruct, become isolated while the world around them moves on. The changes in history have rarely been slow and peaceful like you wish to happen in the ME, the most explosive region on the planet. Its a dream.

    The UAE and Turkey are both excellent examples of this, having had genocides and wars all around them made them realise they have no choice but to change. They werent persuaded by us being nice. They are succesful because they became aware of their flaws.

    These cartoons have accomplished more than you can grasp. It has made some realise that their own hatred is destroying themselves and not the evil West.

    If they rise up before they understand it, make a new government , it will be worse than the current government. They cant globalize their economy when they hate the international world around them. They wont change when you send a million diplomats apologizing for silly things.

    I know you were talking about the ME, but what is happening over there isnt such a big issue for us here. We notice absolutely nothing from it. What we do notice is how European muslims react to what is happening in the ME. What hasnt worked with these muslims (which are evrything but poor, ignorant or uneducated), is being nice. Giving them everything they want except the sharia, it has been tried for decades and it has proven to be a fatal error. There is no slow positive process of change happening, but bombs, beheadings and riots copycatted from the ME and it will happen as long as we apologize.

    Quote

    To be honest I believe that the protests would've been much less on the whole if it was website oriented. Largely because of a large-scale lack of access to the internet that the ME has.

    They have no access to the toons in the ME. They are not printed there in the papers. Nobody dares except a few heros. They are angry about toons they have never seen. Denmark didnt give the ME access to the toons. An imam actively sought and used them to cause these riots.

    Quote

    My argument has been and continues to be that there are better and more mature levels of argument and discourse than stupid cartoons. Your refusal to re-read that nice long post I made is just silly, and the request to re-read your posts after suggesting that is just insulting.

    Again, to begin communicating to me on my level you have to actually explain what better way there is than these toons. Satirical toons are not stupid, they can be genius eyeopeners. A picture says more than a thousand words you know?

  • The root of all evil: the human being itself?

    Quote from mawibse

    First off, its not a fact that I don't know, its a very likely asumption, and that your not conscious of it proves that... eh...

    If you cant say with 100% certainty of what controls you, you are not conscious of it and when you are not conscious of it you cannot consciously control it.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from st0lve

    RD what I was trying to say is that the Muslim world isn't all that the men always win as you said (I recall you did atleast).

    Oh i get it, but it doesnt really apply to what i said about cheating.

    The point is that the woman youre talking about DIDNT cheat and was killed. But what if she had actually cheated and was killed?

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from neotic

    The KKK felt very strongly about keeping blacks from registerting to vote. The Vatican felt very strongly against science. The (an oppressing ignorant group) felt very strongly about keeping (x) in place out of ignorance.Should we just mantain the status quo because these people will get upset, of course not. These actions, these riots, originated as a response to criticism, these riots are simply justifying and perpetuating those very criticisms and for that I believe they (Denmark) are not irresponsible. Proper and legit criticism regardless of the backlash is still proper and legit criticism and that should never be ignored or suppressed.

    My point to Posty exactly. There is no need to apologise for speaking the truth.

    Quote from The Postman

    Wait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted?

    NOW can you imagine why you should never have explained it the way you did? You even made yourself blind to the black hole that is their reasoning.

    1) We are not the cartoonists. We have no control over drawings because theres freedom. The government does not control the media.

    2) The cartoons were not a childish lash at the ME. They are the truth. They are reactions to REAL events where muslims with bombs in their hats blew us up screaming for their god. You thinking its just us being childish boils down to you having ignored my point of how dangerous it is here to criticise Islam. Its the truth, and i posted pictures to prove my point, pictures of angry crowds in European streets threatening to behead those who insult Islam, which you deleted. Even after you saw them you didnt believe it. You missed the singularity of the black hole and called me childish for pointing it out.

    3) Anger is a weakness. You yourself are responsible for controlling it.

    Quote

    My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread.

    Your explanation of how to fix it is proven false, because we ALREADY DID IT IN EUROPE FOR YEARS. Hopefully you understand that because there is individual freedom that we have 0 control over what PEOPLE draw, which means there will be riots every week depending on some imam not being too lazy to take the drawings to the ME and twist its context.

    You also hopefully listened to my earlier point that printing it has NOTHING to do with the problem, because if we hadnt printed it they would riot because it is on a Danish website.

    I am not going to read your posts again, but what i will do for you, is suggest you read mine again, or better, neotics

    In order to make muslims aware that they have made a mistake and to actually change something instead of pretending theres no problem, you have to make them aware of the black hole in their reasoning. In this case, the black hole is in Islam.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from st0lve

    RD, in Iraq an Iraqi who was living in Norway went back to Iraq with his wife, and killed her (she was Norwegian).The man was going to be executed by hanging.

    His reason was that he thought she cheated.

    So what are you saying? Shes responsible in some way because the mere thought of cheating is worth killing over in the middle east?

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from The Postman

    The people doing it thought it was justified. Those who can look at it objectively know that it wasn't. That's the difference.

    Then look at this objectively and tell me who has to apologise for the riots.

    Quote

    She's responsible for her own actions, not her husband's. However she must've known he'd respond quite negatively if he found out. There are more levels to this than simple black and white reasoning that you seem to be fond of.

    What you did was say over and over again why they are rioting, and that we are responsible. You explained everything except why their reasoning is flawed. Sometimes you wrote that that they are completely wrong, but you never explained why. If you skip that, it is the definition of justifying. Extremists recruit PEOPLE by explaining the conflict while at the basis of their reasoning is a black hole.

    You prefer to explain how understandable it all is for a reason, and i wonder what it is.

    Do you know why they were wrong to even get angry at us about the drawings? I doubt it, you probably disagree with it because it is so understandable.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from RD

    No you didn't. I just went and rechecked. You didn't. Please point me out where you said this in any way shape or form on page one.

    Page one of the old thread that was locked.

    Quote

    You're explaining it and yes, there were reasons for 9/11. The action was horrible, and not at all justified, but there was a pathos for it happening. It didn't spawn in a void. That being said, 9/11 was not justified, just as these riots and threats of death are not justified.

    You know the definition of justified? Having a valid reason. There is no valid reason for 911. What your explanation will end with is a logical fallacy. But you leave out the logical fallacy. You dont explain why their reasoning is flawed, but only how it could be interpreted from an extremists point of view to be valid. Having no valid reason is having no reason to hold others responsible for. Those who died on 911 are not responsible for their own deaths. They couldnt have imagined it, and if they could, what does it matter? They did nothing wrong, the extremists reason is flawed and therefor non existent to hold anyone responsible but themselves.

    When dealing with humans, you simply cannot be responsible for anything else than what you deserve.

    A man can murder his wife because she cheated. She is not responsible for her death because she doesnt deserve it.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from The Postman

    The Cartoon

    My final thought on this matter is essentially this. My arguments this entire time have been an explanation of the situation, not a defense of the Muslim reaction nor ills commited by the Islamic extremists in the past. It's been a critical look at how one insulting act has been spun as a free speech rallying cry of the west, when in truth it had nothing to do with that. It existed because free speech exists, but it was not celebrating that right in and of itself. It was deliberately and insensitively attacking Islam as a whole instead of the extremists who stain its reputation.

    However, the EU and the nations involved in the further spread of this cartoon and its legacy have to take some responsibility for their actions. These things don't happen in a void. Much in the same way that if I wore an anti-Bush teeshirt into a Mesquite, Texas country-western bar I'd probably get my ass handed to me. That's not to say that all people who supported Bush are violent hicks, but it does say that my attempt at expression certainly wasn't appreciated, regardless of how much free speech I used in wearing that shirt. I'm responsible for that action though. I made the decision, I offended them, and I got my ass beat for stirring the pot.

    That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it.

    There was no need for you to explain anything. On page one of this entire debate i wrote:

    "I dont think anybody on here is surprised they are offended so lets just get that over with."

    But you spend the next 20 pages explaining it.

    Imagine this: 911 just happened, and i am writing 20 pages of explaining why they did it, to make you realise that you should have been more careful in 1985, you should have known better, you got your ass kicked and you are responsible.

    Am i really merely explaining it and not talking it right? I used your exact words.

    You have drawings about 911, paintings, pictures, probably some with the word ALLAH on it. The only reason you got away with that is because you were so completely screwed over on 911 and you payed them back, they really are too busy in Iraq and Afghanistan. But you didnt get away with it. It will happen again and again.

    They screamed Allah on those planes, they screamed Allah in the attacks here. They used Allah and their prophet. There is a toon of a bomb and the prophet. Its not a childish attack, it is portraying how extremists use Islam. It is as childish as your 911 drawings with a cartoon bubble containing ALLAH AKBAR.

    This isnt us walking in a redneck bar and getting beaten up. This is a regular bar that they storm into and kill us, while we are drawing toons. Toons that they would never have seen if it wasnt for that imam.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from The Postman

    Give me a link that proves me wrong and I'll rescind that point.

    Ill post it later because i have to go to sleep now. To get up damn early.

    Quote

    Bullshit. I suppose the wearing of shirts and the rampant reprintings was this oh-so-noble freedom of speech thing and not some kind of simmering racial/religious tension bubbling to the surface. Come off it.

    Umm what, Do you live here? Thats not why they wear shirts or reprint it. When your fellow countrymen are SENTENCED TO DEATH you back them up.

    Like i said before we have more muslims living here than you have in all your states combined. Nobody in Europe is doing any violence against muslims, we dont hate them, were not rioting, were not xenophobes and were not racist, we dont go out to ridicule them.

    Quote

    This had about as much to do with free speech as American white power idiots stomping through the streets. They're doing it because they know it gets a rise out of people and pisses people off. They know they're protected by the free speech acts here, but that's not why they're doing it.

    It does actually have everything to do with free speech. Like i also said before, ppl have already been killed over criticising Islam in Europe, many times. Even more ppl have been sentenced to death. It has evrything to do with freedom that they back up and condemn their brothers who go wild.

    Quote

    The people in the EU protested peacefully. The people in the ME are the ones rioting.

    They protested peacefully, threatening us with another 911, 77 and madrid, openly threatening to behead all that insult Islam. This again has everything to do with freedom of speech and press in Europe. I dont see how anything could have more to do with it.

  • the new cartoon thread

    Quote from The Postman

    They also apologized well after shit had already hit the fan and many other nations were reprinting them for the sole purpose of egging the ME on. After that point Denmark (and later the paper itself) apologizing was so many empty gestures all too late.

    Denmark apologized before any other European paper reprinted the toons.

    Europe didnt reprint them to insult muslims, I could as well say you invaded Iraq to wipe out Islam. We did it because it is the pinnacle of free speech to be able to say what you want without getting killed. Obviously it is no longer possible in Europe because of extremists, and this basically proves the whole toon issue to be true and justified. Why the hell do we have to change our laws because the Middle East wants it.