Quote from st0lveRD, in Iraq an Iraqi who was living in Norway went back to Iraq with his wife, and killed her (she was Norwegian).The man was going to be executed by hanging.
His reason was that he thought she cheated.
So what are you saying? Shes responsible in some way because the mere thought of cheating is worth killing over in the middle east?
Quote from RDThen look at this objectively and tell me who has to apologise for the riots.
Denmark. The spark that ignited all this lies at their fault. However now I think the riots will probably cease due to the whole mosque explosion in Iraq. I think that'll grab some attention.
Quote from RDWhat you did was say over and over again why they are rioting, and that we are responsible. You explained everything except why their reasoning is flawed. Sometimes you wrote that that they are completely wrong, but you never explained why. If you skip that, it is the definition of justifying. Extremists recruit ppl by explaining the conflict while at the basis of their reasoning is a black hole.You prefer to explain how understandable it all is for a reason, and i wonder what it is.
My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread.
Quote from RDDo you know why they were wrong to even get angry at us about the drawings? I doubt it, you probably disagree with it because it is so understandable.
Wait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted? 
Quote from The PostmanDenmark. The spark that ignited all this lies at their fault. However now I think the riots will probably cease due to the whole mosque explosion in Iraq. I think that'll grab some attention.
My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread.
Wait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted?
allright...
first thing: Denmark is not responsible for those people rioting, they are responsible for that themselves. AND if there would be someone to blame for this it would be the ones who made the cartoons, not a whole country.
second thing: yes their reasoning is flawed. fix it? no, why? they have to "fix" that themselves. as simple as that. as long as they dont realise they are being wrong they wont change, theres nothing to do about that.
third thing: one thing here you should understand is that A: people are allowed to feel insulted by something like this on that i have to agree with you BUT and here comes B: a "reasonable" person would laugh about a "joke" like this and think: hey its just someone elses opinion what the hell do i care.
think about this... then come back. thank you.
Quote from rockdude86allright...
first thing: Denmark is not responsible for those people rioting, they are responsible for that themselves. AND if there would be someone to blame for this it would be the ones who made the cartoons, not a whole country.
Agreed. Excuse my blanket statement. I should've clarified that.
Quote from rockdude86second thing: yes their reasoning is flawed. fix it? no, why? they have to "fix" that themselves. as simple as that. as long as they dont realise they are being wrong they wont change, theres nothing to do about that.
This is what I already wrote.
Quote from rockdude86third thing: one thing here you should understand is that A: people are allowed to feel insulted by something like this on that i have to agree with you BUT and here comes B: a "reasonable" person would laugh about a "joke" like this and think: hey its just someone elses opinion what the hell do i care. think about this... then come back. thank you.
It's something they feel very strongly about, though. That's the difference. Read my long diatribe up there, I think I cover a little of this too.
The KKK felt very strongly about keeping blacks from registerting to vote. The Vatican felt very strongly against science. The (an oppressing ignorant group) felt very strongly about keeping (x) in place out of ignorance.
Should we just mantain the status quo because these people will get upset, of course not. These actions, these riots, originated as a response to criticism, these riots are simply justifying and perpetuating those very criticisms and for that I believe they (Denmark) are not irresponsible. Proper and legit criticism regardless of the backlash is still proper and legit criticism and that should never be ignored or suppressed.
to postman: ok then we are both kind of right here 
RD what I was trying to say is that the Muslim world isn't all that the men always win as you said (I recall you did atleast).
Quote from neoticThe KKK felt very strongly about keeping blacks from registerting to vote. The Vatican felt very strongly against science. The (an oppressing ignorant group) felt very strongly about keeping (x) in place out of ignorance.Should we just mantain the status quo because these people will get upset, of course not. These actions, these riots, originated as a response to criticism, these riots are simply justifying and perpetuating those very criticisms and for that I believe they (Denmark) are not irresponsible. Proper and legit criticism regardless of the backlash is still proper and legit criticism and that should never be ignored or suppressed.
My point to Posty exactly. There is no need to apologise for speaking the truth.
Quote from The PostmanWait, what? They were wrong to get angry about being insulted?
NOW can you imagine why you should never have explained it the way you did? You even made yourself blind to the black hole that is their reasoning.
1) We are not the cartoonists. We have no control over drawings because theres freedom. The government does not control the media.
2) The cartoons were not a childish lash at the ME. They are the truth. They are reactions to REAL events where muslims with bombs in their hats blew us up screaming for their god. You thinking its just us being childish boils down to you having ignored my point of how dangerous it is here to criticise Islam. Its the truth, and i posted pictures to prove my point, pictures of angry crowds in European streets threatening to behead those who insult Islam, which you deleted. Even after you saw them you didnt believe it. You missed the singularity of the black hole and called me childish for pointing it out.
3) Anger is a weakness. You yourself are responsible for controlling it.
My point is that their reasoning is flawed. So how do you fix it? Go read my nice long post on this very subject earlier in the thread.
Your explanation of how to fix it is proven false, because we ALREADY DID IT IN EUROPE FOR YEARS. Hopefully you understand that because there is individual freedom that we have 0 control over what PEOPLE draw, which means there will be riots every week depending on some imam not being too lazy to take the drawings to the ME and twist its context.
You also hopefully listened to my earlier point that printing it has NOTHING to do with the problem, because if we hadnt printed it they would riot because it is on a Danish website.
I am not going to read your posts again, but what i will do for you, is suggest you read mine again, or better, neotics
In order to make muslims aware that they have made a mistake and to actually change something instead of pretending theres no problem, you have to make them aware of the black hole in their reasoning. In this case, the black hole is in Islam.
Quote from st0lveRD what I was trying to say is that the Muslim world isn't all that the men always win as you said (I recall you did atleast).
Oh i get it, but it doesnt really apply to what i said about cheating.
The point is that the woman youre talking about DIDNT cheat and was killed. But what if she had actually cheated and was killed?
Quote from RDMy point to Posty exactly. There is no need to apologise for speaking the truth.
2) The cartoons were not a childish lash at the ME. They are the truth. They are reactions to REAL events where muslims with bombs in their hats blew us up screaming for their god. You thinking its just us being childish boils down to you having ignored my point of how dangerous it is here to criticise Islam. Its the truth, and i posted pictures to prove my point, pictures of angry crowds in European streets threatening to behead those who insult Islam, which you deleted. Even after you saw them you didnt believe it. You missed the singularity of the black hole and called me childish for pointing it out.
That's your opinion. You're welcome to it. However, the re-printings of the article in the face of largely peaceful protest (with a few extremists thrown in) was just antagonistic and yes, childish. The discourse offered by them was two dimensional (no pun intended), very offensive to the entire religion and not a good way of getting an intelligent argument going. I think we can at least agree that the cartoon was that.
Your explanation of how to fix it is proven false, because we ALREADY DID IT IN EUROPE FOR YEARS.
My solution of getting their people to realize that they need to rise up and better themselves is proven false? Oh my RD you're going to have to back that one up with some major longterm statistics and articles about the Middle East and her peoples, because you see, I was talking about the Middle East, not Europe. Re-read my post again.
Hopefully you understand that because there is individual freedom that we have 0 control over what ppl draw, which means there will be riots every week depending on some imam not being too lazy to take the drawings to the ME and twist its context.
Fair enough.
You also hopefully listened to my earlier point that printing it has NOTHING to do with the problem, because if we hadnt printed it they would riot because it is on a Danish website.
To be honest I believe that the protests would've been much less on the whole if it was website oriented. Largely because of a large-scale lack of access to the internet that the ME has.
I am not going to read your posts again, but what i will do for you, is suggest you read mine again, or better, neotics
My argument has been and continues to be that there are better and more mature levels of argument and discourse than stupid cartoons. Your refusal to re-read that nice long post I made is just silly, and the request to re-read your posts after suggesting that is just insulting.
Quote from The PostmanThat's your opinion. You're welcome to it. However, the re-printings of the article in the face of largely peaceful protest (with a few extremists thrown in) was just antagonistic and yes, childish. The discourse offered by them was two dimensional (no pun intended), very offensive to the entire religion and not a good way of getting an intelligent argument going. I think we can at least agree that the cartoon was that.
I live here, you dont. I know my country, the papers, everthing, you dont. You are not giving us the benefit of the doubt because you are projecting your negative emotions on us. You are making the accusation, the burden of proof lies at you 
After we saw what happened to Denmark, we still printed them. Do you know many ppl who consciously play with their lifes for laughs and giggles?
My solution of getting their people to realize that they need to rise up and better themselves is proven false? Oh my RD you're going to have to back that one up with some major longterm statistics and articles about the Middle East and her peoples, because you see, I was talking about the Middle East, not Europe. Re-read my post again.
First of all, your solution is a dream and secondly it is not a solution.
You give no explanation how to get them to rise up. You might actually begin communicating to me on my level when you give that solution. I gave one, which you have ignored like most of my points. Kedrin gave the same one.
All cultures and religions have gone thru periods of clashing with the world around them. The only reason they adapt is because they are continuously confronted with it and really have no other choice but to adapt. Either that, or self destruct, become isolated while the world around them moves on. The changes in history have rarely been slow and peaceful like you wish to happen in the ME, the most explosive region on the planet. Its a dream.
The UAE and Turkey are both excellent examples of this, having had genocides and wars all around them made them realise they have no choice but to change. They werent persuaded by us being nice. They are succesful because they became aware of their flaws.
These cartoons have accomplished more than you can grasp. It has made some realise that their own hatred is destroying themselves and not the evil West.
If they rise up before they understand it, make a new government , it will be worse than the current government. They cant globalize their economy when they hate the international world around them. They wont change when you send a million diplomats apologizing for silly things.
I know you were talking about the ME, but what is happening over there isnt such a big issue for us here. We notice absolutely nothing from it. What we do notice is how European muslims react to what is happening in the ME. What hasnt worked with these muslims (which are evrything but poor, ignorant or uneducated), is being nice. Giving them everything they want except the sharia, it has been tried for decades and it has proven to be a fatal error. There is no slow positive process of change happening, but bombs, beheadings and riots copycatted from the ME and it will happen as long as we apologize.
To be honest I believe that the protests would've been much less on the whole if it was website oriented. Largely because of a large-scale lack of access to the internet that the ME has.
They have no access to the toons in the ME. They are not printed there in the papers. Nobody dares except a few heros. They are angry about toons they have never seen. Denmark didnt give the ME access to the toons. An imam actively sought and used them to cause these riots.
My argument has been and continues to be that there are better and more mature levels of argument and discourse than stupid cartoons. Your refusal to re-read that nice long post I made is just silly, and the request to re-read your posts after suggesting that is just insulting.
Again, to begin communicating to me on my level you have to actually explain what better way there is than these toons. Satirical toons are not stupid, they can be genius eyeopeners. A picture says more than a thousand words you know?
I'm not done yet, but midterms for my international poli-sci class have come up, so I'm on hiatus until Wednesday at least. Just FYI. 
damn i thought i had defeated you 
Quote from RDdamn i thought i had defeated you
Ho ho ho RD, not at all
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