[CS:GO] Rails

    Quote from catfood

    I pooped:

    I tried to do some "concept art" over one of your screenshots. I seriously hope you don't take it the wrong way


    It's ok catfood, I appreciate it. I got used to how it looked but you're right, it needs something else. I thought about adding some letters over the upper concrete beam as I used the light just to guide players view above because of CTs.

    -I like the left vents with some particles/envsmoke, it's a good idea I might implement.

    -The box below is something I didn't want to add in order not to give too many hints about going above the wood plank thus making smart Ts work as a team boosting and having an advantage (just like the old dark crate in d2 circular stairs).

    -I'm not adding the tree as I don't want any prop on the ground over there and might look strange from another spot if it is over the roof, but something there might prove useful for the composition.

    -The A sign might be useful, also a B sign over the far metal door, but I didn't want to encourage Ts to go middle aggressively, specially the first time they play the map, getting through mid is not as common as it is in cbble for example. Middle routes are secondary, mostly for support.

    -Cables and ac are nice, and adding some colors with stripes or pipes might be fine too, I might try it.

    -The window's frame is something I agree and I have already tried with brushes but was badly lit, I should probably have to make a model to make it look pretty.


    Thanks

    One critique I have of this level is that it uses a tremendous amount of colors. I understand that they're all sort of underneath the same general "tone", but if you want to do that many colors I think they will still clash and conflict with one another. I'd really recommend restricting texture colors to 2-3 colors at most in any given area. I think this way you'll get a generally complimentary color scheme.


    For instance, yellow sort of cautions trips, red bricks, and white snow. Etc. That's my big issue with this map running around it, you did a good job with the buildings and the geometry but the texturing is extremely noisy and there is no consistent theme to grab onto. If you can dramatically reduce the amount of noise on your textures and improve the lighting such that there is better readability, I think you'd get to a stronger visual.


    Where is the level located?


    What is going on?


    What story is there for players to interact with?

    Quote from FMPONE

    One critique I have of this level is that it uses a tremendous amount of colors. I understand that they're all sort of underneath the same general "tone", but if you want to do that many colors I think they will still clash and conflict with one another. I'd really recommend restricting texture colors to 2-3 colors at most in any given area. I think this way you'll get a generally complimentary color scheme.


    For instance, yellow sort of cautions trips, red bricks, and white snow. Etc. That's my big issue with this map running around it, you did a good job with the buildings and the geometry but the texturing is extremely noisy and there is no consistent theme to grab onto. If you can dramatically reduce the amount of noise on your textures and improve the lighting such that there is better readability, I think you'd get to a stronger visual.


    Do you think the new DE_train suffers from the same issue? It has the same sort of 'patchwork warehouses' theme with lots of different colours used.


    A lot of the textures used are almost pastels (with little noise or detailing) which I think helps it blend.

    Quote from Vaya

    Do you think the new DE_train suffers from the same issue? It has the same sort of 'patchwork warehouses' theme with lots of different colours used.


    A lot of the textures used are almost pastels (with little noise or detailing) which I think helps it blend.


    Not really. New train has a pretty effective theme. I agree it's a bit patchwork, but thats intentional. I think the amount of grit and minute noise on the textures in Rails is a big issue, and also the lack of distinct shapes in the diffuse textures. As I say the geometry is nice so it's worth trying to massage the textures a bit and establish a consistent theme that ties the map together. Also I don't really remember seeing any normal maps on the Rails textures. Stuff like that goes a long way and can have the effect of seeming to reduce noise


    Deh0, maybe you can post 2d flats here and we can help critique?

    I am aware of the current trend on level design in CSGO, the clean looks with almost no detail on the textures but normals or the blurry/washed out textures in the new de_train. Regardless of that you have to take into account this map has been in development for very long and because of that the art direction doesn't follow such style as it wasn't trendy by then. Both maps resemble old games color palette, being rust more obvious to hl series, for example.


    As I come from CSS I knew what the scene demanded back then, 1.6 style maps with minimum amount of props and few basic textures all over the map. That's why you may look back to my old map de_rust and feel like it is empty or de_rails and feel like there it is too detail texture wise (the amount of props and details are posterior work I did in order to make it appealing to current standards). As the direction was towards a more detailed style in textures you'll notice visibility is taken into account by using a strong contrast and not by reducing the amount of detail on them. Snow and white walls are a clear example of what I'm talking.


    Imo the best way to improve visibility in this point would be to make custom player models with a different color (yellow, orange, red etc) thus not getting rid of the art direction over the map nor the "realistic" texture style. I'd say even more, I'd like that to be viable art direction in our maps as not all themes are suited for the clean style you mention (season, agency etc), and I like the old dirty looks.


    Meanwhile, the player models I've chosen have not just white parts but dark ones and I had no difficulty spotting them, but I don't discard those playing for the first time may not know how the map plays, where player might be at and because of that will take them 0,2s more than it would take them if the textures were plain, so they will blame enemy's frag on the map (or the mouse, latency, teammates etc). That's how cs has always been.


    Regarding colors, you may find comments on previous versions of the map stating there was not enough color variation, and it was true. Regardless of the details/brushwork I added to upgrade it to the standard level of details, I've just increased the amount of greens as planed and added few touches of orange for places I thought it would fit and would require attention. When I said I may think about adding more color was precisely for that reason, increasing orange in signs/bombspots or just placing pipes to make it easier for 1st time players to notice those CTs sniping in spawn (like I did with the light there).


    Imo the colors chosen are fine and not frequent, despite players tend to prefer warm palettes, specially those who have not as much sun as we do here in Barcelona. In any case it's mostly green-brown-white + purple sky&lighting that sets the mood. More than the theme it was the mood what I was aiming for, and I like it. The theme is not different than train, I could place some Russian signs to call it a russian trainstation but it would really add much value to itself. To me it feels lonely, cold and far away from the city (some players even told me without asking it felt like there was a dormitory town in the skybox). Also the whole map theme is consistent, you can't really say you are in a different place at all (that's something I didn't like in the new train with the scifi part for example).


    I agree I could've added some iconic stuff to blow up like toxic wastes or a statue, but by the time I started I had no 3d package (so I wasn't planing custom models) nor didn't matter much, I can arrange a story behind like this: "Abandoned in the old train station lies important evidence that may incriminate the main opposing political party in criminal activities. The government has sent the special forces in order to secure this information and disclose the information to the public before the elections take place.". In the end great maps like dust2 or yours de_cache are quite similar, and nobody really cares in the second match.


    I appreciate the feedback FMPONE, it is something I'm aware of and I'm taking into account for the map I'm working on right now, but I'm not sure if blurring all the textures of de_rails would be a good idea.


    P.S There are some bumps around (v.g white wall, snow...), but as the textures are not plain color/washed out it is not that evident. You may try the commands to see the difference, you'll see it is not huge as there is some shadow information in the color map, but they really help.


    Thanks!

    I'll explain some of my thoughts on this tomorrow. I don't think you need to do anything radically different, but I do think you need to settle into some different thought processes about your level. For instance, you sort of dismiss the importance of the theme by saying like you could throw in some Russian trainstation stuff. As a player, those thematic decisions are what really interest me in a map.


    Look at Marquis, Workout, Chinatown, etc etc etc. Because the maps pick an idea which is function of the level + geographic association, players automatically know certain things about the level and have certain ideas about what they expect to see. If you show them these things, it's exciting and interesting. So I think if you sort of just say "oh it's a Russian trainstation", you miss the point. Think about a bit more deeply. You have a general look for the map which is pleasant but have you examined interesting ways to enhance this with a real world location or functional idea? Russian trainstation starts to look a bit lazy then (not trying to beat you down with this), especially when the game already has one.


    I would say what about somewhere in France based on the mood of your map, it reminds me of film noir stuff. Anyway, I'd like to run around with some screenshots and tell you what I think, I've seen you put a lot of work into this map over the months and I think it can improve if you think about things in a way that the other maps have, it'd be no problem. But it might require that deeper thought about things, and an organized approach


    Your textures for instance are nice, but they don't remind me of any specific geographic place. Even if the textures were going to be noisy or whatever, at least they could have that going for them. Anyway like I say, more soon. and btw, even if you don't decide to make changes to Rails, it might help with future projects. I know going back to old work can be tricky, sometimes it's better to learn a lesson than to sit around with old work before you learned the lessons in the first place

    Quote from FMPONE

    Not saying theme is not important, just that it really wasn't my focus when I started it, the public target didn't really mind it (you probably know already some old players and their mindset) and I didn't have the tools to make it unique back then (i.e 3d package) besides texture work (I used to extend a current theme). In fact, the map I'm working on has that issue solved from the start, it's something I'm aware of despite I didn't fix with rails.


    I agree that adding landmarks that remind of real locations can increase the desirability of the map by fulfilling fantasies and adding a bit of storytelling within the map itself (not just the description). That's something I could work on with Rails, I just didn't see myself remaking the whole set of textures plain/washed out following the current trend and revising the whole theme again.


    I'm open to suggestions and I don't discard working more time on the map. I've updated it not long ago and I'll probably do it again (I've fixed stuff in hammer already) not just for gameplay reasons but to implement some suggestions like yours, that's fine. I'll totally check your insights tomorrow and think about it.


    Thanks for the time & insights

    I would recommend a 'real world location' backdrop too, if just because you want to get in an operation.


    Think about how valve has marketed each operation and parts of the game itself are built up- they play on the 'global' idea of global offensive quite a lot with tours of duty etc. I would say the majority of the maps featured so far have had a strong placement in a certain country or region.

    you're welcome. i have to be honest i havent played the map yet just responding on your visuals (screenshots) so the tree and the A sign are probably misplaced when playing the map but the area-skybox felt fertile so i thought bringing back more foliage into the map would be nice for colors, breaking geometry and tilling.

    im curious how the map will turn out

    Hey Deh0lise,


    Here's that feedback I promised <3


    Again, disclaimer - these things are just my opinion and I mean no offence and just intend the best for the map's gameplay.


    B Site:


    I feel B is too open. There's too many places for CTs to camp and not enough cover for Terrorists to get past the entrance into the bomb site (from the direct path). The changes below include pushing the bomb site in 2-3metres from the exterior, adding cover including an additional train car, and *possibly* with discretion - closing off the far/2nd train tunnel. The fear with these changes is that it makes the map similar to Train, but I believe there's a reason Train is designed the way it is - it executes this type of entry into a site very well - and is appealing for Ts. I think the current design for the B site is actually somewhat unappealing for Ts, as I feel CTs with AWPs will dominate it.


    Incoming images explaining:


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/xWdjQlI.jpg]

    I understand the concern here may be how the bombsite actually plays if the Ts and CTs rush it - the CTs will most likely be much further back into the Tunnels, but also keep in mind that one smoke at the T connection may stop T advancement, allowing the CTs to push up.


    Pushing the train site over and adding an additional Train car and more cover options for Ts entering the site.

    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/ktQBUl4.jpg]


    This is just a suggestion -would love to hear your thoughts:

    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/ruNz15T.jpg]

    The other thing to consider with the far tunnel is creating more vertical gameplay and/or somehow limiting it's approach to the site, as I find right now there's just too many places for the Ts to try to check, clear and cover while getting a plant down - I don't feel I would ever feel comfortable planting in this sight as the last man alive, because a CT can just camp in one of many locations - listen for the plant and pop out while it's being armed.


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/SaCAJz2.jpg]

    This room would replace the far tunnel, which would be closed off from both ends.


    Other feedback:


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/7PskIC6.jpg]


    [Blocked Image: http://i.imgur.com/bsim4Zu.jpg]

    I'm still working on the models, but I've got the gameplay set. As you can see I've already increased the cover on the site and differentiated the gameplay from train. CTs can access the bombsite using the backdoor which leads to the dark tunnel side (you can see some light on the round train). Going straight double doors wasn't very interesting gameplaywise.


    I'm going for the Detroit theme FMPONE suggested, though I'm not sure I'll be able to make neons, they require a lot of tris, between 2-3k, and I'm not sure how it will hold. I have some placeholders now (hotel sign, russian sign). I've also changed some decals for guidance, fixed clips, changed lights etc.


    I'm not gonna eliminate/move the 'trap vent' in A as it is placed there so it can be controlled easily by CTs, currently the balance of that site is fine as it is imo. I've added a yellow decal though, but it will still be closed as it is interesting for Ts to know when it is open and breakable sound does really help. The vent itself is not just to boost but to retreat as T, sneak as CT behind Ts, throw nades@site... moving it or placing a ladder would diminish the predictability and the way it was meant to be played, though I don't discard further modifications after testing it several times.

    [Blocked Image: http://puu.sh/gzRmj.jpg]

    Quote from Deh0lise

    ...


    I'm going for the Detroit theme FMPONE suggested, though I'm not sure I'll be able to make neons, they require a lot of tris, between 2-3k, and I'm not sure how it will hold. I have some placeholders now (hotel sign, russian sign). I've also changed some decals for guidance, fixed clips, changed lights etc.


    ...


    2-3 k is actually not that many if you look at most of the stock props. I guess you could also use alpha chanels for the letters in most areas. Keep up the good work.

    I also wouldn't worry about the polys. Also, don't be afraid to ask for help if you need it. Big showcase props like that are something somebody else could help you with if you'd feel more comfortable doing that. All that really matters is that you ship a very high quality map :)

    Is that bluring from the vent or have you done that in photoshop? not sure if it's the timing of the screenshot or not but looks a bit overdone. Other than that the changes to this area look great!

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