Counter-Strike: Global Offensive

    Quote from Interfearance

    1 hour ago, Interfearance said: Give me an example of a really dirty theme that is at the same standard of Nuke, for example.

    Dust2?

    Quote from Vaya

    Just now, Vaya said: what? not following

    The Dust 2 has been glorified to the max, and the reference isn't even "dirty". To clarify my use of the word dirty, I mean overgrown vegetation out of map, a sewer water leak here and there, normal mapped mud with reflections. Pretty much everything that can make a dirty map look equally pleasing to the industrial/sterile maps without looking too clean to be true. Source has problems with most of these things. No jabs, just what I have noticed.

    Quote from Interfearance

    6 hours ago, Interfearance said: Give me an example of a really dirty theme that is at the same standard of Nuke, for example.

    Overpass, Cache, Aztec, and Assault are all maps that come to mind when thinking of dirty maps.

    If we're including operation maps: Overgrown, Favela, Mist, Ruins, Siege, Rails, Rush, and a few more are also pretty grunge looking.

    It's certainly possible to do grunge right in source. It just needs a lot more work. Just look at some of the L4D series maps.

    Quote from Interfearance

    2 minutes ago, Interfearance said: The Dust 2 has been glorified to the max, and the reference isn't even "dirty". To clarify my use of the word dirty, I mean overgrown vegetation out of map, a sewer water leak here and there, normal mapped mud with reflections. Pretty much everything that can make a dirty map look equally pleasing to the industrial/sterile maps without looking too clean to be true. Source has problems with most of these things. No jabs, just what I have noticed.

    I don't think there's any issue here, just not what people have attempted recently. Grind has a few of the things you mention but it's much more arid. you'd be surprised how much is possible in source. P.s I wasn't meaning B side. Look at the area around T spawn. Tons of dirt and grime.

    @That50'sGuy Most of those maps are pretty dated graphically. Also, L4D2 uses fog and runs at a lower framerate as far as I remember. It looks good, but using noncompetitive compromises.

    @Vaya The arid and dry maps typically look great due to being liberated of reflective surfaces, rubble elements, and foliage (its the desert). The mappers are also a huge reason these maps look good, credit where it is due. I have a pretty good grasp of what Source is capable of, I have played some of its best and worst looking games and levels (ins2 and portal are tied in my eyes). It is especially bad at using normal maps without choking, and illusory pock marks on displacements wont cut it in my eyes. I think a good competitive game to look at is battalion, which really sells some of the maps with its ground materials.

    Spoiler [Blocked Image: https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steam/apps/489940/ss_d1ef165d77abff4d208918693e81e25f0af8f80a.1920x1080.jpg?t=1567695495]

    Quote from Interfearance

    33 minutes ago, Interfearance said: I almost wish people would make a small counterargument so I can see where I am so wrong!

    honestly I doubt if there's a point/ Dust2 has a ton of grime but apparently it's not the 'right' grime.

    I'd say the proliferation of "clean" maps in CS has more to do with readability than technology. The kind of grime Interfearance seems to desire is visually noisy, which just isn't a good fit for classic CS gameplay.

    my two cents:

    CS:GO it's a multiplayer game with specific mechanics and player movements that require maps that follow strict rules in order to provide visibility/readability and good frame rates. Given the source engine's limits, good looks comes last and it has to bend and twist in order to keep the first 2 requierements untouched.

    For example you may place overgrown vegetation but never in the playable area. All the details placed in the playable area must not impede the gameplay at all.

    That's is why the current dust2 and nuke look the way they look.

    Compared to other games, CS:GO it's a picky c**t regarding its leveldesign.

    Quote from Interfearance

    19 hours ago, Interfearance said: The Dust 2 has been glorified to the max, and the reference isn't even "dirty". To clarify my use of the word dirty, I mean overgrown vegetation out of map, a sewer water leak here and there, normal mapped mud with reflections. Pretty much everything that can make a dirty map look equally pleasing to the industrial/sterile maps without looking too clean to be true. Source has problems with most of these things. No jabs, just what I have noticed.

    I dont really think thats true, almost every source game up until current CSGO has used grunge, its just ages faster then other elements because of how outdated some of the techniques are. If you look at sirocco there are certain new grunge elements that look good because they used newer techniques to avoid the blocky flat look. I think Valve intentionaly chooses to use minimal grunge in csgo A. because players want clean environments that allow them to see player models easy and B. many of us still have a sour taste from over-used grunge in both early community maps and the older source maps. I agree that many of the new valve maps look squeaky clean in even areas that should be dirty but they do that just because it looks and plays nicer. If they cared more about ascetics then gameplay you can bet you'd see more grunge used so they could show off how "modern" and detailed the source engine is.

    Quote from Vaya

    18 hours ago, Vaya said: honestly I doubt if there's a point/ Dust2 has a ton of grime but apparently it's not the 'right' grime.

    I wouldn’t call D2 a dirty map, not in the sense of this conversation. I think what @Interfearance refers to is “grunge” maps… and frankly in the current lineup I would classify only Cache as grunge. (That’s why I’m so curious to see the reworked version).

    I would say that also Subzero is a lot alike Cache, they both remind me of many 1.6 and CSS maps.

    I dunno if we can say that “grunge doesn’t render well in Source Engine”, or if is a matter of how the artist puts together the map.

    I don’t think grungy maps look bad per-se, more like: the amount of detail (noise) makes them age badly and they become “boring” much quicker.

    I dunno if this has intrinsic ties to the engine… I could only think that some problems would be imposed by texture size and the anti aliasing available.

    i think Source can do “dirt” well, I don’t remember ever feeling less immersed in Day of Defeat Source because of the graphics.

    Quote from fewseb

    1 hour ago, fewseb said: its just ages faster then other elements because of how outdated some of the techniques are.

    This was similar to my original argument (grunge looks worse). I disagree with your last statement, Valve has pretty high standards when it comes to arting. Canals was beautiful, but a game play disaster.

    Quote from Serialmapper

    7 hours ago, Serialmapper said: Given the source engine's limits, good looks comes last and it has to bend and twist in order to keep the first 2 requierements untouched

    Once again, I agree with you, but my original point was that naturally cleaner themes will always be preferred in csgo, and this supports it. I don't think bump mapping and reflectivity are game changing at all, they are just not really possible in the source engine if you want fps.

    I think people are forgetting that what I was trying to say is that the engine pushes people towards cleaner themes due to its limitations. It was just an observation that I hold to be true. I didn't even expect people to reply trying to convince me that source is more powerful than I think. I have played just about every source game ?

    @blackdog New Cache hype? Did you see the new tree room its awesome!

    Also in retrospect, I agree that artistic decisions play into this, but dirt imo does not look good unless you slap normals on.

    Quote from PogoP

    On 9/9/2019 at 5:46 AM, PogoP said: Me and some friends have been trying to get into CSGO the past week or so, and I just don't understand the appeal of it any more. You guys got any tips on how to.. I dunno, enjoy it more?

    To be fair I think that like other old+popular games CSGO is in a condition of being held back by a lot old dumb issues and exploits that shouldn't be there anymore but devs can't even fix because purists are gonna riot...

    Movement is stiff and feels like you got a 2x4 up your ass, player collision snags and sticks to every surface from blades of grass to fckin air molecules, bunny hop, boosting look/feel dumb and were obviously never intended, walking up stairs/sidewalks feels like you're surfing on a plywood in a mosh pit... we wouldn't be here if they addressed this long ago, but now they can't do it without getting backlash so it's a huge risk I don't see them taking.

    I don't want to disregard the emergent gameplay and "$$$Pro Trixx$$$" that came out of this... but "unintentional" means it's underdesigned, so there's likely work that needs be done. I think there's a fine line between "interesting quirks" that create emergent gameplay and issues that just make the game look/feel shitty.

    Also from what I've seen, a lot of players like to shit on the rare NEW things they add once in a while, further telling them that they'll get negative backlash if they add any new map/weapon/gamemode in the future, and encouraging them to slow down and take less risk.

    Quote from text_fish

    On 9/14/2019 at 2:34 AM, text_fish said: I'd say the proliferation of "clean" maps in CS has more to do with readability than technology. The kind of grime Interfearance seems to desire is visually noisy, which just isn't a good fit for classic CS gameplay.

    This sentiment might be related to what I think is another dated issue, that player models don't stand out against most environments. Maps need to be brightly lit and look like a fckin empty art gallery on primer just so people can see that guy walking in front of them... other games employ technique like lighting player models in a different way than the env, adding post-process effects like contour lines, and UI displaying target's name/health and what have you. I'm sure there's a tasteful solution that's possible here, but the slightest change will trigger the **** out of people.

    BUT THERE'S GUN SKINS!! I CAN HAVE FIRE AND SKULLS ON MY AK!!! 10/10 CANNOT STOP PLAYING ??


    edit: I love this game btw but I just think it should be in a much better place by now...

    Quote from MikeGon

    4 hours ago, MikeGon said: walking up stairs/sidewalks feels like you're surfing on a plywood in a mosh pit.

    I dont really get what you mean by that? Is it too smooth? I dont really think gittering up stairs is all that better, even in games where they smooth out the transition. Youre somewhat right with player models. ON the one hand older maps were seemingly designed without the player models in mind, since they were designed back when they were using the beta seal team and elite crew models for every map , so you get instances like office where its dimly lit already then they go and put the Anarchists on there as the T-faction with dark jeans and a black hoodie. At the same time the remade player models combined with remade maps do stick out pretty good, the idle animation they use also makes it to where they never truly stop moving which helps them stick out. But even still at a distance any and all player models tend to star to blend in with any environment because they lose resolution.

    The obvious answer to me would be an inline like they use for x-ray, the negative against would be that players couldnt hide where the might have been able to before. At the same time are player models blending in really that huge of an issue anymore? ITs true that maps have to be brightly lit, but is that really a bad thing? Having gone back and played CSS a few times, its strange just how remarkably bad the dark areas are. Ive played a number of old games where lighting in areas was near non-existent and it ruined the gameplay. I personally prefer being able to see over atmosphere


    While youre certainly right about CS being behind with some features, its dangerously close to ones where people argue CSGO isnt up to date because you cant aim down sites or sprint.

    My point overall is this: Valve is stuck in a position where they can't just make drastic changes out of the blue, no matter how beneficial it would be.

    I guess one solution would be to release a new separate iteration of the game, and with it comes those kinds of changes (CSGO 2?? Counter-strike: Origins??) ??

    Quote from fewseb

    On 9/16/2019 at 9:08 PM, fewseb said: I dont really get what you mean by that? Is it too smooth?

    Sorry that metaphor didn't quite land, this is what moving up/down stairs in this game feels like by default

    What I'm saying is it shouldn't be as shaky as it is, even without clip brushes. When you step on anything there's zero transition between the 2 heights, it's like a binary 1-frame thing. Sorry but as of 2019 that's just really outdated... That's why it feels terrible, and that's why instead of being a subtle polish thing, clip brush slopes are pretty much mandatory in this game.

    Look at any modern shooter game with decent production value, and you'll see that none of them have that problem (excluding Bethesda games unfortunately, but hey what kind of reputation do these games have for their controls again?)

    Quote from fewseb

    On 9/16/2019 at 9:08 PM, fewseb said: ITs true that maps have to be brightly lit, but is that really a bad thing?

    One major side effect is that it reduces our possible choices when it comes to setting. Wanna make any dim moody interior? Nope. Wanna add any subtle rain/fog/atmosphere effect? Nope. Wanna make any exterior setting that takes place at night? Forget it.

    (I'm exaggerating but you get the idea)

    Quote from fewseb

    On 9/16/2019 at 9:08 PM, fewseb said: While youre certainly right about CS being behind with some features, its dangerously close to ones where people argue CSGO isnt up to date because you cant aim down sites or sprint.

    To clarify, I'm advocating for fixing bugs that have been glorified over the years, not changing what CS is fundamentally. ?

    Quote from MikeGon

    12 minutes ago, MikeGon said: Sorry that metaphor didn't quite land, this is what moving up/down stairs in this game feels like by default

    What I'm saying is it shouldn't be as shaky as it is, even without clip brushes. When you step on anything there's zero transition between the 2 heights, it's like a binary 1-frame thing. Sorry but as of 2019 that's just really outdated... That's why it feels terrible, and that's why instead of being a subtle polish thing, clip brush slopes are pretty much mandatory in this game.

    Pretty sure this is intended by Valve. HL2 (even HL1 iirc) had camera height interpolation in stairs back in 2004. Even CS:S might have it.

    All of these "stiff movements" you talk about are the reason I stick to source games after all these years. Which I guess was your point... extremely hard for Valve to change anything. But I wouldn't want it any other way.

    Quote from MikeGon

    18 minutes ago, MikeGon said: My point overall is this: Valve is stuck in a position where they can't just make drastic changes out of the blue, no matter how beneficial it would be.

    I guess one solution would be to release a new separate iteration of the game, and with it comes those kinds of changes (CSGO 2?? Counter-strike: Origins??) ??

    The problem with releasing a new version (regardless of what fixes/updates it would bring) is that it splits the player base. Valve has been in that position before with 1.6 and CS:S and CSGO eventually managed to put that situation right again. In a similar way, this is also a position Valve is stuck in. Unless CSGO's popularity would start to decline massively, I don't see the benefit of releasing a new iteration of the game, as opposed to improving/porting the current version.

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