The golden age of mapping

eh, it was more the part where you put yourself on a pedestal over a trivial point. we're past any discussion here.

Quote from Sentura

we're past any discussion here.

lol, arrogant.

nice try.

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arrogant,

not aromatic.

Quote from cincinnati

lol, arrogant.

nice try.

that was just fact. it was past any discussion.

arrogant pedestal

honestly sentura, you seem to have made it your thing around here to only half understand what's going on around you, and by that i mean that it seems intentional.

i found it mildly troubling that the guy came on and, in his first post, basically indicted today's amateurs, and in turn, many of the people on this site, as being incapable of staking out any original ground with today's tools (read the post, it's not just a trivial point, and i actually don't disagree with all of it). i see lots of innovation still going on around me (on this very site, sometimes even!), as i'm sure most of the people around here do...so are they on the pedestal with me? should i not have referenced his point to make my own? should i maybe not have referred to myself as "i?" is that what bothered you?

brusquely refuting a rather broadly-applied assertion using one's own personal experience as the counterpoint is not arrogance. presumptuousness, however, is the very essence of arrogance. in calling an attitude that i simply don't have a fact, you're being presumptuous.

i suggest if you want to argue it further, that you frame it within the point of the thread it'self, because it otherwise seems like you're just looking for an unrelated scuffle, and that's just weak...

Let's all just admit that J-Rod exists and move on.

actually what i did was call you out on your behavior, because i've seen you do this in pretty much every other post around. you can excuse it by saying it was part of the discussion or that the discussion called for it, but why do bad behavior and excuse yourself rather than just do normal behavior so you don't have to? i can see your reason for your statement, but you could have put it better. if anything, i find it troubling that a person who essentially wants to use games to convey a message has no idea of how to deliver that message properly.

spellbinder would put things straight over here

also: i'm not forum police or anything in that regard, i'm just saying this because it's been pissing me off.

I think it depends on what engine you're using though... if I'm honest I still have yet to see Cryengine 2 used to it's full potential, sure the stuff we've seen aside from the main game are pretty (including HP's excellent Volcano Island)... but the game is capable of much more. The best use of the engine I've seen so far is Casus Belli, which has some amazing environments imho;

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Especially the first screen... the lighting is a bit dull but look at that detail! When was the last time you saw apartment blocks with individual details like doors and air-conditioner units? I certainly haven't...

But still, these can look even better than they are right now.. Cryengine 2 has almost no boundaries, I'm looking forward to trying it out when I get myself sorted with a new workstation!

Can you do something like that on older engines? Yes.. but you need to know the limitations. Creating something like this in Source can be achieved with a loss of detail (probably smaller areas).. HL1 can handle that kind of detail with some forced trickery and transparent textures.. but you'd need to know what you're doing.

You certainly need to spend more effort when creating something that stands out on old technology, take Trempler's awesome mapping recently;

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How many of you thought that was Source? Quite a few I'm sure, he's obviously put a lot of effort into that and it shows.

So talent is rendered moot by technology is really not the case, it just depends on what you're using and what kind of scope you have for what you want to do. I've seen some terrible maps for Cryengine 2.. you'd think with such a beautiful user friendly engine people couldn't fuck it up.. but they have done, we've all seen it !!

Quote from Sentura

stuff i made up. hyperbole, etc.

wow, you are hallucinating.http://%7boption%7d

all of my posts are listed here, chronologically. you won't find one instance of "bad behavior" in any of those, let alone in "pretty much every other post around"

there is one instance where i responded, in kind, to a snarky comment you made to me, but that's by far the closest i've come to what you're accusing me of. it's obvious that left an imprint on you and you've conflated it with my other 90 or so posts, which is sad.

you made that way too easy. now, kindly shut up.

on topic. i've seen some innovative stuff come out for cryengine (call of the fireflies from here, for example) and it stands quite well on its own...given the relatively small community around ce modding, i'd say the ratio of innovation to crap is actually more now?

the thing then is that technology is excluding a great number of people, which doesn't seem like the greatest tradeoff.

I don't think what I said was out of line with the main thrust of this thread, and that is that the "golden age" of mapping has past. I agree with that opinion, and I gave some specifics about why I think that way. I don't think I condemned today's mappers.

When you think of a map being unique and innovative, are you only talking about visuals? It seems like that's what some people are saying. I think visuals are actually a very SMALL part of what makes a map unique and innovative. Some of the most enjoyable maps aren't all that visually stunning, yet they remain close to gamers' hearts throughout the years. Innovation is far more about having that little something that no one's thought of yet that makes your map fun to play and keeps people coming back. Innovation doesn't have to be radical (though it can be), it just has to be more new and unique than the next guy.

As I thought about this more over the weekend I realized that another aversion I have to fancy-pants, uber-realistic graphics is: the more realistic the graphics get, the more silly the fictional physics are. (Note that "good" and "realistic" are not synonomous.) Earlier FPS weren't as commonly going for realism, and so jumping off a 5-story building or getting a rocket in the face without even falling over didn't seem hard to believe... because you weren't supposed to believe it.

I am NOT saying ALL games are striving for realism these days, just that it seems to be more common than it was back in the GA. I think this is likely due to the technology now can strive for realism with greater success than could the technology of the GA.

Still, visual realism, in and of itself, doesn't really impress me. Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but to me, that sort of thing is just the inevitible advance of technology. What is NOT inevitible, on the other hand, is that games would be FUN. There are plenty of good looking games that aren't fun, and plenty of good looking maps for fun games that are themselves not very fun. It of course should be noted that visuals are not UNimportant, either.

In fact, maybe the right map is like the right girl. The hottest girl isn't necessarily the most fun to be with, and the it just might not work out with you and the super fun girl if she's not at least somewhat attractive.

Finally, "jeans" vs "genes"... I was really tired that night, and that's all I can say for myself on that one. I'm going to go and hang my head in shame now.

Quote from Bugman

When you think of a map being unique and innovative, are you only talking about visuals? It seems like that's what some people are saying.

actually, that's what you said. it was in your use of the word "visually" that i started to disagree with you, as it was the only criteria you spoke to when you discredited today's amateurs. if you've been playing these mods and there's more to it than that, you might make a better case, but it sounds like you're commenting on something you're simply no longer immersed in, and that's likely the reason for your conclusion.

How dare you forget about this beauty:

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The ground foliage reminded me a lot of Stalker actually.

I can't wait for this one.

Quote from cincinnati

wow, you are hallucinating.http://%7boption%7d

all of my posts are listed here, chronologically. you won't find one instance of "bad behavior" in any of those, let alone in "pretty much every other post around"

there is one instance where i responded, in kind, to a snarky comment you made to me, but that's by far the closest i've come to what you're accusing me of. it's obvious that left an imprint on you and you've conflated it with my other 90 or so posts, which is sad.

you made that way too easy. now, kindly shut up.

Quote

what i referred to as bad behavior was just you taking the piss out of things (like right now). fair enough that it wasn't the most relevant thing to say in this thread, but my point still stands that you favored arrogance over argument in this thread alone. and post view tells nothing on a forum where everyone can delete their own posts (which, being something as petty as acting arrogantly, i wouldn't exclude the possibility of you doing).

what really is sad is that you take nothing i say to heart.

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above is not thread relevant.

i wanted to say something about this topic, but most of the interesting points have been discussed already. it's interesting to look at why level design gained such popularity early on, and why we're seeing a shift from that to indie games. i'm also thinking that if there'll ever be an indie game that is simple and has a built in editor, it will become a larger success than a game without an editor. i mean, the reason for the golden age in the first place was because of a few games that each had large enough communities because of the tools. what is to stop it from happening again in a simpler environment where puzzle/intrigue/fun is valued higher than pure visuals?

i'm kinda hoping someone will come up with a formula for immersion one of these days, because it would put an end to the "graphics > all" arguments i keep seeing. fucking go outside or watch a movie if you think graphics are more important than gameplay. after all, games are meant to be played.

no one cares, go watch E3