HL2 Map Design Question: Brush or Mesh?

[Dranore]

This is more for the professionals who've been working with Source for a while now.

I've been doing some planning for a map for Source and laying out some brushwork in Hammer. I know HL2 uses alot of meshes for world objects. My question: When should one use a mesh as opposed to a brush? What are the trade offs? I've heard that rendering meshes uses less CPU power. Is that acurate?

For example, I'm messing with a column. As a brush, if it touches the floor and ceiling it cuts the floor and ceiling if they have direct contact. It also seems like it would be smarter to be a mesh because I could have a rounder column without having an overly complex brush to compile.

Any light that you guys can shed on this would be appreciated.

-Dranore

[CrazyMAC]

we should get zappy to write a guide for us =D as some of the old hl1 rules might not apply to source D=~?

[IR]

meshes in source cost less resources so your pillar yes .. make it a model

[st0lve]

But we do not use the VHE for HL2 yet, since the SDK isn't released.

[Dranore]

Doesn't matter. You can layout geometry in the Hammer we have now. They're not changing the map format so much that you can't import old map files. Just can't test in Source yet. Doesn't hurt to prepare.

-Dranore

[TomWithTheWeather]

Meshes are computed and stored in the video card memory and are instanced in that memory only once, even if you have 100 of that same mesh in your map. BSP computes more slowly and is not instanced if you have many of the same brushes. I'd go with a mesh. It'll look better in the end anyway.

Meshes are the way to go. Engines that rely heavily on brushes/BSP for geometry will eventually die out as the need for higher poly geometry becomes more important. The days of making an entire map from BSP, that looks good, are rapidly coming to an end.

/me turns off his crystal ball of doom...

[FrieChamp]

What the Unreal engine mapper said.

[DD]

Only someone who hasn't seen the power of a correct BSP culling, which allow for much greater detail in indoor areas than any fake BSP or any distance cull can do, would suggest something like BSP will go instinct. A fair balance of the two, weighted towards mesh of course, allows for massive indoor areas with tons of detail that artist in max couldn't do even near as fast. Of course working on massive outdoor games leads you to believe otherwise.

[Dranore]

Hehe... thanks for the replies. Not that I'm a pro/expert on the subject... but I tend to agree with DD... it doesn't make sense that BSP would disappear completely. So I'm still curious, for Source, when does one choose mesh vs. brush? Clearly finer details and complex objects should be meshes, but I'm unsure in general. :\

-Dranore

[mikezilla]

brush is dead

[st0lve]

mesh = detail

brush = core geo

[TomWithTheWeather]

I'm not saying BSP will disappear completely. I'm just saying that meshes will become much more predominate in maps than BSP. Of course, you'll still have some simple BSP for culling and such. I mean, why make a flat wall out of a mesh when it could more easily be BSP? Stuff like pillers though, 99% of the time, look better as higher poly meshes, especially when lit correctly.

Now if you're talking about a square pillar or an 8 sided one or something...

Only someone who hasn't seen the power of a correct BSP culling, which allow for much greater detail in indoor areas than any fake BSP or any distance cull can do, would suggest something like BSP will go instinct.

Lol. I'm assuming you're trying to slam Unreal, which is real BSP. It's culling methods and CSG are just a little different than your beloved Halflife. What is the correct culling method? Just because it's done differently doesn't mean it's done wrong. When you're creating an engine you implement the best culling methods for that type of engine. Just because it's not what your used to doesn't make it wrong.

A fair balance of the two, weighted towards mesh of course, allows for massive indoor areas with tons of detail that artist in max couldn't do even near as fast.

Eh? I think somehow you just contradicted yourself in the same sentence. Nearly as fast as what? A highly detailed indoor area that is mostly mesh would require an artist. O_o

A good artist in max might take a little bit longer to make a piece of geometry, but it will always look better than BSP cube primatives in the end.

Of course working on massive outdoor games leads you to believe otherwise.

In the end, you do what's better for the game/map your creating. Indoors and outdoors require different methods and have to be approached differently from a design standpoint. Believing one or the other is a wrong approach entirely. You do what's best for the game. You pick the best tech for the situations.

[insta]

Oh ho ho ho, looks like there's trouble in paradise!! (Or at Gearbox)

[Izuno]

lol.

another way of thinking of this is that to make HL2 maps you need to know brushing, meshing and texture artistry. if you are making a super high quality map, which of course all mapcorians do, that requires a lot of work. i forsee that a good map designer-layout expert will design the base gameplay of a map (layout and brushes), work with a good modeller who can crank out required meshes relatively quickly, and work with a 2d artist to create textures and maybe skin the meshes too. of course you can do it all yourself, except it will just take more time.

back on topic,

For now don't worry about how much meshing you need to do and exactly what objcets you need to mesh and what you need to brush. best advice is to just experiment once you get the new engine and SDK and i'm sure you'll quickly get the feel for it. as always, best way to learn is to experiment and just "do" it and don't worry so much about planning your level 100% before you even get the new engine.

oh...this is all speculation. I don't map in HL2 yet so i defer to Zaphod.

[Pericolos0]

statics for lief

i was wondering if it would be good idea to do a hl2 map made totally out of static meshes. Only use some rudimentary null brushes to cut visibility.