Interview with Garry on Shacknews

[MrBaracuda]

I trust the INS team completely and I'm pretty sure we could start a new project from scratch and get it done in a matter of months with our built up experience.

Do a cool DM mod NAU

[Rick_D]

hmm, this thread had 1 page yesterday, and it was generally about garry. now it looks like it is about insurgensee? jeez guys can we go back to sucking garry's art hole?

[Fletch]

Right I am to blame for being ignorant of a very common expression

Finally, we agree on something.

[Thrik]

Haha, wow. You sure steered this thread into a new direction effectively since page one FMPONE. Guess I'd better go beyond my usual long posts and come up with something to suit the size of this thread.

Having just read everything in the universe, it has become apparent to me that the "release a shit first build and then iterate quickly" strategy is no longer as effective as it was in HL1. Back then there were few expectations as far as the mod scene went, so when some that provided drastically new gameplay came out everyone jumped on them.

Mods could also be pushed out at a fast rate then due to much simpler asset creation requirements. You could put together a map of HL1 standard in a relatively minuscule amount of time, which was more than enough to satisfy people then. It takes significantly longer to put together something of HL2 quality, which is what people will expect.

There's also the simple fact that there're a lot of (team) multiplayer games these days, as opposed to the distinctively minimal amount of them back in the TFC/CS/DOD heyday. As such, the demand for each is less and that's why even decent ones like DOD:S struggle.

Regardless, it's clear that INS is now out, so the whole argument on the "release early and often front" is completely redundant and not worth continuing.

This post is looking very texty so here's a nice picture to break it up:

INS does have a good player base right now, but I'd severely advise the team against getting into too strong a sense of security. If the game isn't patched quickly and often, the player base will very rapidly dissolve, and as speculated earlier you'll find yourself in the same position as the little-known mods above.

Bear in mind that the majority of this player base is stemmed from the huge amount of hype beforehand (hundreds of people in the IRC room before the mod was even released, for example -- they weren't there because of the gameplay) and the syndication of hype on news sites and FilePlanet. You couldn't really help but get thousands of players after that.

This is the time to kick that "release often" strategy into gear. Pump out gameplay enhancements, get feedback on them, apply the feedback, release again. Keep doing this until you end up with a totally winning formula; don't worry too much about making dramatic changes or altering the game significantly, and definitely don't ignore player feedback and think your formula just cannot possibly not be much fun. This is basically what your DOD and your CS did, except without the several years of asset creation first.

The biggest mistake you could do now is to not release often. If the next patch comes after all the people who downloaded it and didn't like the gameplay much have put the mod out of their mind, they'll most likely never try it again. And without their word of mouth, you're righteously fucked.

Just please, please don't let your current player stats go to your head. I understand it's exciting and it's wonderful you have so many players, but it doesn't make you invincible. Tribes: Vengeance was released to a large fanfare, had thousands of enthusiastic fans from Tribes 1 and Tribes 2 waiting to play it, and was very well built from a technical perspective.

However, because its gameplay just wasn't that appealing the player numbers very rapidly went from many thousands, to hundreds, to an average of 80 after a few months. A retail game, released by Vivendi, with two generations of community plus new players. Despite it being a beautiful game with few bugs, due to the gameplay not really hitting the right note its players literally melted away. To put this into perspective, Tribes 2 which came out in 2001 to this very day averages around 400 players, and Tribes 1 which came out in 1998 still has more than Tribes: Vengeance (2004).

The same story can be said of a number of games, although with Tribes it holds a particular relevance due to it also being a primarily multiplayer game.

[R_Yell]

Having just read everything in the universe, it has become apparent to me that the "release a shit first build and then iterate quickly" strategy is no longer as effective as it was in HL1. Back then there were few expectations as far as the mod scene went, so when some that provided drastically new gameplay came out everyone jumped on them.

Well, many things have changed since then, you have a good point saying that there is a much bigger multiplayer FPS offer now, and also must be remarked that the whole HL1 mod scene is still competing against HL2. But the main point is still the same and that never'll change: if you make an original game and people like it, they'll play no matter what's the art quality and how much custom content it has.

Back in the CS days (I played beta 2), there was nothing like CS. Now let's take a look, err Insurgency, I could play DOD:S if I wanted a lighter version of it, I could play RO if I like a similar gameplay but WWII themed, I could play AA if I wanted similar or more realism. Well, the offer is much bigger now, even taking in consideration they aren't exactly the same thing, every game has its own personality, but nothing compared to CS and rest of multiplayer stuff by that time.

[Steppenwolf]

I never disagreed with Step's comment that Garry doesn't lead a big mod team. I just thought it was fucking hilarious to come up with that position coming from Insurgency. I guess you just don't appreciate my sense of humor. My utmost fake apologies.

Dude i wouldnt make such a comment in his direction if he wasnt such a known prick.

Then again why is it hilarious? Who else knows better what it takes to release a mod of this size? We've gone trough a rollercoaster ride the last 3 years and we are the only bigger mod for hl2 that managed to release yet (with the exception of Dystopia maybe which also has a shitload of own content and code). You sound just as arrogant as garry because you have no idea what it takes.

If it was so easy why arnt there many many more TC's or bigger mods? When hl2 came out there was like 200 mods announced, half of them acting as if they want to become the new big thing. See what is left?

[D3ads]

This post is looking very texty so here's a nice picture to break it up:

Garry certainly seems to have a large ego, I dare say he wouldn't be slagging off other people's work if he didn't have such a high status.

[Psy]

I agree with Mino. I'm currently working in a small mod team for a mod set in the HL2 universe. The story has been done and some of the game scenarios have been written too.

Luckily, the writers have a basic understanding of how the Source engine works so they're not telling me to do something which simply cannot be done in the engine. People need to be less, "z0mg, let's do this because it looks cool!", and more, "z0mg, let's do this because we need to and it's necessary to the game as a whole!".

[Schmung]

Things have changed since the days of HL, back then you could download, play about with and, if you wanted, delete a mod in about an hour. It takes bloody ages to load anything in source and the download sizes are huge.

Release early, release often doesn't work so well because the audience expectation is so different from what it was in the days of HL. I think it's still possible, but from what I've seen so far people seem to have the wrong idea.

Everyone seems incredibly focused on delivering content on first release, which is bullshit and a waste of effort for all involved. It's especially endemic with source where it's all about how pretty your screenshots are and how many guns/maps your first release has. I'd much rather wait six months, d/l a 200meg file that has two maps and a really good, clear focus on gameplay rather than wait two years, and d/l an 800meg file with x number of maps, but with gameplay that feels barely evolved.

I've barely touched any source mods because I see a thread on some forum about the release of some mod and nobodies ever got anything positive to say about the gameplay. Fine, I'll come back in a few weeks when the next versions released and try it again. Except that never happens. A lot of teams are so focused on getting more content into their releases instead of improving their gameplay, the thing that's going keep your mod alive and give you time and motivation to expand. Instead, they spend years slaving away on something and when the first release hits and all they get is a sigh from the public at large and that kills your motivation.

[Sentura]

wow... just wow. fmpone really needs to sit the fuck down and relax a bit. the whole thing about what to do and what not to do with a mod has apparently been elevated since insurgency came out, and ins people have really started fortifying themselves to barricade away any and all critique. i discussed this a few days ago with ginger_lord: if you cannot handle criticism the way you get it handed here, then why are you even here at all? you sit and whine about your damn mod all day long every time someone says something bad about it.

here's a pointer: maybe people criticize it because it's not worth their time. i'd rather see that you would invest time in shaping the mod rather than sitting here endlessly babbeling about it; it gets you nowhere. in fact, the only ins member who has actually taken this maturely is minotaur0. suck it up, learn from your mistakes, stop whining and move along. if one of you can, why can't the rest?

[Thrik]

Yes I also approve of the way Minos has conducted himself in response to criticism, particularly with accepting where it's justified.

[FrieChamp]

Why is everyone talking about Insurgency? This thread is about Garry's MOD

[Bic-B@ll]

because ins > garry's mod

[Steppenwolf]

wow... just wow. fmpone really needs to sit the fuck down and relax a bit. the whole thing about what to do and what not to do with a mod has apparently been elevated since insurgency came out, and ins people have really started fortifying themselves to barricade away any and all critique. i discussed this a few days ago with ginger_lord: if you cannot handle criticism the way you get it handed here, then why are you even here at all? you sit and whine about your damn mod all day long every time someone says something bad about it.

here's a pointer: maybe people criticize it because it's not worth their time. i'd rather see that you would invest time in shaping the mod rather than sitting here endlessly babbeling about it; it gets you nowhere. in fact, the only ins member who has actually taken this maturely is minotaur0. suck it up, learn from your mistakes, stop whining and move along. if one of you can, why can't the rest?

Why dont you leave your polemic attitude at home? We had a decent discussion here about mod releasing strategys.

Its this arrogance and ignorance that is pissing me off not your so called "critiques".

[FMPONE]

Sentura said:

wow... just wow. fmpone really needs to sit the fuck down and relax a bit. the whole thing about what to do and what not to do with a mod has apparently been elevated since insurgency came out, and ins people have really started fortifying themselves to barricade away any and all critique. i discussed this a few days ago with ginger_lord: if you cannot handle criticism the way you get it handed here, then why are you even here at all? you sit and whine about your damn mod all day long every time someone says something bad about it.

here's a pointer: maybe people criticize it because it's not worth their time. i'd rather see that you would invest time in shaping the mod rather than sitting here endlessly babbeling about it; it gets you nowhere. in fact, the only ins member who has actually taken this maturely is minotaur0. suck it up, learn from your mistakes, stop whining and move along. if one of you can, why can't the rest?

I'm not on INS