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Israel vs. Palestine

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a palestinian landmine that killed 9 palestinians on a beach.

Depends on who you ask. But it was probably an Israeli missile that killed them. A missile intended for the Palestinian rocket launching sites ironically enough.

There was an investigation and it was most probably a landmine planted by palestinians to stop israeli commandos from entering by beach, which they did the week before. Also the shrapnel and crater was investigated and concluded to be from a landmine. At least thats what my media told me :-D

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I'm getting really pissed now, this soldier is just an excuse to take back parts of Gaza, or crushing Palestine to the ground.

Talk about fair, for 1 soldier you have to kill 10+ kids, who haven't done shit.

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I'm getting really pissed now, this soldier is just an excuse to take back parts of Gaza, or crushing Palestine to the ground.

Talk about fair, for 1 soldier you have to kill 10+ kids, who haven't done shit.

Ofcourse this isnt just about the soldier but also the hundreds of missiles that are landing on Israeli cities each week, fired from Gaza.

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I'm getting really pissed now, this soldier is just an excuse to take back parts of Gaza, or crushing Palestine to the ground.

Talk about fair, for 1 soldier you have to kill 10+ kids, who haven't done shit.

Ofcourse this isnt just about the soldier but also the hundreds of missiles that are landing on Israeli cities each week, fired from Gaza.

Don't forget the missles going the other way aswell.

I bet that they don't even care about that soldier, they just want to remove Hamas with power. Which won't work because the more they fuck up Palestine, the more votes Hamas will get.

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I bet that they don't even care about that soldier, they just want to remove Hamas with power. Which won't work because the more they fuck up Palestine, the more votes Hamas will get.

Nothing wrong with getting rid of Hamas. Its an organisation that intentionally targets civilians: a terrorist organisation.

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They were democratically elected though, RD. Wouldn't that make their actions war-like and not terrorist? It does not absolve their actions, but Israel is known for accepting civilian losses in their attacks so long as their intended target is destroyed.

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...

Is it right to blow yourselves up in a bus full of children and pregnant women, being totally innocent.

Is it right to claim a second 'holy city' when the other party has only one and the city you're claiming is only the 'second holiest city' you have?

Is it right to teach your kids that it is always good to kill a jew, when you have the chance to get away with it?

Is it right to teach your children to hate? To destroy?

Is it right to use kids as a cover to empty your rifle from?

Look only at the offers Israel made. Israel offered to release a 1000 (!) palestinians just so they would release the one hostage. This very much shows the difference in appreciation of life... Death and destruction seems to be populair amongst palestinians and that's mostly to blaim their own leaders.

Where are the critics on Arafat when he frauded over 90% of all the financial support he got from Europe? He had 7 palaces in this world. Seven! While 'his people' were merely having enough money to pay for their daily needings? Let alone the infrastructure!

Where are the critics to the (open!) terrorist goverment? And no, I agree you can't judge a whole nation, but the hamas goverment is elected by a large group of people and I do think they are responsable for their own choices and it says something about a nations attitude..

You see, Israel continuesly seems to be portrayed as an agressor while they are the ones being attacked! Everytime they talk back in the same language the arabs do, the world seems to be shocked an awed but the thing nobody wants to see is that Israel is the one being attacked! And being threatened by more then one surrounding nation! Suppose you heard that Europe, Japan and Russia said they want to 'drown all American citizens in their own blood'. Just imagine and your not nearly close to what Israel citizens goes through.

Saying Israel 'is known' for willing to accept civillian losses 'as long as their intended target is destroyed' is bullshit. Sorry to say, but who's ass did you pulled that one from?

Have you seen Israeli mothers saying they hope their child will die young as a martyr? Have you seen Israeli soldier hiding behind kids, shooting at arabs? Have you seen Israeli fathers, shuf a AK-47in the hands of their 12 year old sons? Have you seen a proud Israeli familiy around a dead member because he died 'while destroying the intended target'?

Get real. You see, that's the great difference between these so closely related people: one seeks life and the other seeks death, one builds, and the other destroys...

Stolve, you should feel hypocrite. You seem outraged by the fact that Israel has begun to use force to free their one soldier (and even if it is because they want to show that they are not happy with a terrorparliament), but you don't care that most of the 'innocent' Palastinian citizens are being oppressed by hamas? Don't you see that hamas is not good for the peaceproces? Are you too ignorant to know that there is no real democracy in 'Palastine'? FFS, when hamas 'won' the first thing they did was run around on the streets, shooting guns in the air, threatening people from wich they had known who had not voted for them. Hamasleaders have records of terrorism! Records of killing children! The guts to act like your outraged makes me unwell..

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...

Is it right to blow yourselves up in a bus full of children and pregnant women, being totally innocent.

Is it right to claim a second 'holy city' when the other party has only one and the city you're claiming is only the 'second holiest city' you have?

Is it right to teach your kids that it is always good to kill a jew, when you have the chance to get away with it?

Is it right to teach your children to hate? To destroy?

Is it right to use kids as a cover to empty your rifle from?

Look only at the offers Israel made. Israel offered to release a 1000 (!) palestinians just so they would release the one hostage. This very much shows the difference in appreciation of life... Death and destruction seems to be populair amongst palestinians and that's mostly to blaim their own leaders.

Where are the critics on Arafat when he frauded over 90% of all the financial support he got from Europe? He had 7 palaces in this world. Seven! While 'his people' were merely having enough money to pay for their daily needings?

Where are the critics to the (open!) terrorist goverment? And no, I agree you can't judge a whole nation, but the hamas goverment is elected by a large group of people and i do think they are responsable for their own choices and it says something about a nations attitude..

You see, Israel continuesly seems to be portrayed as an agressor while they are the ones being attacked! Everytime they talk back in the same language the arabs do, the world seems to be shocked an awed but the thing nobody wants to see is that Israel is the one being attacked!

Oh, and Postman, saying Israel 'is known' for willing to accept civillian losses 'as long as their intended target is destroyed' is bullshit. Sorry to say, but who's ass did you pulled that one from?

Have you seen Israeli mothers saying they hope their child will die young as a martyr? Have you seen Israeli soldier hiding behind kids, shooting at arabs? Have you seen Israeli fathers, shuf a AK-47in the hands of their 12 year old sons? Have you seen a proud Israeli familiy around a dead member because he died 'while destroying the intended target'?

Get real. You see, that's the great difference between these so closely related people: one seeks life and the other seeks death, one builds, and the other destroys...

You gotta understand I think both sides are stupid. I think both sides are just as bloodied and should work towards peace, however there are factions within each that make that an impossibility. Hamas, in this case, was at least trying to legitimize itself by becoming a political party. With that there would've been a tempering of their vehemence. However, right after they were democratically elected (on the basis of their civic duties* not their anti-israeli stance) the West immediately pulled funding. Now what are a bunch of poor, starved, angry people going to do? Riot and be assholes. So the cycle continues.

*they built hospitals, schools, houses for the poor, etc etc.

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The sad thing is the funding never went to the people. In their short life as a political party, hamas has allready a reputation of buying weapons from funding.

It's true that both hezbollah and hamas build hospitals and schools, but this is only to assure the loyality of their supporters. I can see no other reason for the fact that hamas has violent standards and is not seeking peace, but war, and total domination.

It does not make them symphathetic in my perspective. It's just a strategy.

And again, hamas has not been democraticle elected. Now, this might sound strange but even if Fatah would've won the elections, it wouldn't be a real 'democratic' election. It's a raw battle of power in wich the majority (the weak) have nothing to say, let alone demand, not nearly comparable with the elections we, people from the west, know them. Want them.

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And again, hamas has not been democraticle elected. Now, this might sound strange but even if Fatah would've won the elections, it wouldn't be a real 'democratic' election. It's a raw battle of power, not nearly comparable with the elections we, people from the west, know them. Want them.

:???: they were elected. The world was shocked that they were, but they were elected. As for politicians doing anything to win the favor of the people though? Oldest trick in the book.

The best scenario in my book would be for Israel to go back to its 1967 borders, the Palestinians to be given an official state and for diplomacy to be started anew. As things progress currently I don't think Hamas will be elected again. We've pretty much ensured that by pulling out support of a Hamas-led government and letting the people taste starvation ( no pun intended).

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no pun.. taken? :P

Anyway. If I decide to vote for a party, I look for what I see is best for my country, for myself. Not what would be safest for me and my family. As long as direct fear is inflcuencing my decision, I refuse to see it as 'democratic.

Another difference: here we are used that politicians will do anything in the favor of the people to win votes. Out there, they will do anything to win votes.

How many islamic democratic nations do you know? Imagine bush driving throught the streets of New York, shooting his gun in the air. Surrounded by his armed and disorganized amry. This culture is so different! I partially come from that culture and I must say I still have trouble accepting and understanding some ways of thinking 'they are used to'. It's not directly negative, I think, but in comination with the western way of thinking it's deadly. It's way more focussed on survival and the gathering of power. Pavlow would not have understoud one thing of it!

(I think, the only thing that can solve this situation is the return of the Messiah or a big asteroid hitting the earth and destroying all life.)

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Anyway. If I decide to vote for a party, I look for what I see is best for my country, for myself. Not what would be safest for me and my family. As long as direct fear is inflcuencing my decision, I refuse to see it as 'democratic.

Fear is always a motivator used in democracy. Fear that you'll lose your job, fear that you'll become sick and unable to care for yourself or others, fear that people coming into your country are going to destroy it, fear that other nations will attack you. It's the same as anything, really.

Another difference: here we are used that politicians will do anything in the favor of the people to win votes. Out there, they will do anything to win votes.

There's not as much difference as you might think. Politicians make promises and break them in the same speech, it's not so much a favor to the people as it is securing power for themselves. I site America's incumbancy rates for the House and Senate. It's something like 95% and has been for a long while now.

How many islamic democratic nations do you know? Imagine bush driving throught the streets of New York, shooting his gun in the air. Surrounded by his armed and disorganized amry. This culture is so different! I partially come from that culture and I must say I still have trouble accepting and understanding some ways of thinking 'they are used to'. It's not directly negative, I think, but in comination with the western way of thinking it's deadly. It's way more focussed on survival and the gathering of power. Pavlow would not have understoud one thing of it!

Now this I find an interesting angle. It is quite like a perversion of our own elections as a facade for a cheap form of despotism. I can see that.

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KT you have a jewish famely or so? So it's clear that you think that Palestine is the evil guys, Israel is the good guys, it's clear.

Stolve, you should feel hypocrite. You seem outraged by the fact that Israel has begun to use force to free their one soldier (and even if it is because they want to show that they are not happy with a terrorparliament), but you don't care that most of the 'innocent' Palastinian citizens are being oppressed by hamas? Don't you see that hamas is not good for the peaceproces? Are you too ignorant to know that there is no real democracy in 'Palastine'? FFS, when hamas 'won' the first thing they did was run around on the streets, shooting guns in the air, threatening people from wich they had known who had not voted for them. Hamasleaders have records of terrorism! Records of killing children! The guts to act like your outraged makes me unwell..
I am pretty much outraged that they enter a country which they pulled out of less than a year ago, and now they invade it again just to cause as much problems as possible (cause they aint after their soldier). About the peaceprocess, I really don't feel that invading a country is helping? Unless it's Israel that actually wants the same as Hamas, to remove the opposing forces from the earth.

I don't really believe in peace in the ME ever again, people will always fuck it up, not matter what. Put in UN troops, remove ALL (yes inc. Israels nukes etc.) weapons from both sides, even if it might take years, and then you put in a gov that go no connections at all, and you force them to live with eachothers (or within their countrys border).

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