The Downfall of the Netherlands

[st0lve]

Rd, since this is your thread; Could you answer the questions you just asked me? How would you solve those problems? Internationaly...

[RD]

They can only solve it themselves. The best we can do is not backstab our own ppl and dont take over islamic values. They can adapt or stay in the French suburbs.

Btw i opened the paper this morning and it had the results of a dutch survey about immigrants, something about the dutch breaking the last taboo The results:

50% of the Dutch is against Islam

10% of the Dutch is openly racist towards it

41% is bothered by immigrants intolerance

41% believes Islam is not a peaceful religion

70% believes Islam cant integrate into European society

75% want a multi cultural society

80% feel tension between Islam and dutch culture

[st0lve]

So why aren't you guys doing anything about it? You have politicial partys (I know, cause you even have that pedophelia one), some of them must be agaist immigration, or atleast strict immigration.

"41% believes Islam is not a peaceful religion"

Wow. Guess what 41% is affected by what they see and hear on TV.

What I mean is that you always hear that Islam is terrorists and such, and you've had some people killed by extremists for making videos etc. And I really think that made a number as big as 41%.

"70% believes Islam cant integrate into European society"

Can any other religion then? Buddhism? Hinduism? Or whatever crazy religions there are in the world.

"75% want a multi cultural society"

As long as you remove Islam from the "culture"? Or is this with Islam in the country?

[RD]

So why aren't you guys doing anything about it? You have politicial partys (I know, cause you even have that pedophelia one), some of them must be agaist immigration, or atleast strict immigration.

There were some ppl in the government doing some stuff. But its getting less. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has left Holland to join an American thinktank unfortunately. Ayaan btw, if you dont know her, is a muslim refugee that fled Somalia to escape her islamic family after they cut off her clit. She got into our government to fight against Islams treatment of women. She made a movie with a dutch guy, he was beheaded and she went into hiding. And now shes in the US, one of the only ppl that dared to confront Islam politically.

"41% believes Islam is not a peaceful religion"

Wow. Guess what 41% is affected by what they see and hear on TV.

What I mean is that you always hear that Islam is terrorists and such, and you've had some people killed by extremists for making videos etc. And I really think that made a number as big as 41%.

Ofcourse that made the number bigger. Because whats on the news is reality, its not science fiction. Over here we dont have alot of terrorism, but we do have alot of ppl defending the values when you dare criticise Islam.

"70% believes Islam cant integrate into European society"

Can any other religion then? Buddhism? Hinduism? Or whatever crazy religions there are in the world.

"75% want a multi cultural society"

As long as you remove Islam from the "culture"? Or is this with Islam in the country?

It basically means we have no problem with other skincolors, cultures or religions at all. That were not xenofobes. We know Islam, and the problems ppl have with it arent dumb. Ppl arent brainwashed by the media.

And yes, all the other religions and cultures here have already integrated. We already have a multiculti for decades.

[Skjalg]

It basically means we have no problem with other skincolors, cultures or religions at all.

And yet, here you are saying that their culture is bad because they oppress women You can wrap it in as much patriotism and the american flag all you want, its not black and white. It has been their religion and culture for longer than your family goes back, yes there are cruel persons there too, but if it had been half as bad as you think it was something would've happened a long time ago.

[Pericolos0]

There were some ppl in the government doing some stuff. But its getting less. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has left Holland to join an American thinktank unfortunately. Ayaan btw, if you dont know her, is a muslim refugee that fled Somalia to escape her islamic family after they cut off her clit. She got into our government to fight against Islams treatment of women. She made a movie with a dutch guy, he was beheaded and she went into hiding. And now shes in the US, one of the only ppl that dared to confront Islam politically.

didnt ayaan lie about being a refugee , which is the reason shes not in holland anymore now

and theo van gogh didnt get beheaded but shot by a fundamentalist. Dont exaggerate the facts RD

also its funny that 41% believes immigrants are intolerant when the polls show how intelorant the people are themselves. Tolerance really comes from both ways.

[st0lve]

Yeah I heard that Theo got shot, and that they didn't want to cut her clit off, but "sercumsize" her (you know, same word as "snipping your foreskin" as jews do). Which isn't cutting it off, they basicly sew it up, and mess it up for life.

[RD]

It basically means we have no problem with other skincolors, cultures or religions at all.

And yet, here you are saying that their culture is bad because they oppress women You can wrap it in as much patriotism and the american flag all you want, its not black and white. It has been their religion and culture for longer than your family goes back, yes there are cruel persons there too, but if it had been half as bad as you think it was something would've happened a long time ago.

Actually i said some muslims oppress women, but that nearly all muslims accept these values.

Its black and white that opression is wrong. Religion or culture is no better excuse than doing it just because you feel like it. Theyre not superior because they believe in a god.

I think youve forgotten the purpose of tolerance. It lets us live the way we want to (to a certain degree ofcourse). Maybe some women can acccept their faith of slavery, but what about the ones that dont? You ignore them because things arent bad enough yet?

didnt ayaan lie about being a refugee , which is the reason shes not in holland anymore now

and theo van gogh didnt get beheaded but shot by a fundamentalist. Dont exaggerate the facts RD

Ayaan gave up her third last name, because at the time when she came to Holland immigrants werent allowed to have 2 last names. She fled the Islamic tradition of forced marriage which we dont accept as a valid reason to flee, but we know she would have been killed otherwise.

Theo van Gogh was shot, stabbed and partially beheaded with a note stabbed in his chest. The guy didnt have time to finish it.

also its funny that 41% believes immigrants are intolerant when the polls show how intelorant the people are themselves. Tolerance really comes from both ways.

You seem to find it unacceptable that ppl are intolerant, in other words you are intolerant of intolerance, just like us. Its like - - makes +, a positive thing, if you understand math. The word intolerance, just like racism, makes ppl go blind and forget math.

Not shaking a womans hand because shes a woman, is sexist. Not befriending other cultures like bhuddists, hindus or christians is discrimination. It doesnt matter whether its a holy rule of their religion. Their rules arent better than ours, and we have zero excuses to do stuff like that.

Tolerance of these values shouldnt come both ways, unless you want the dutch to break ties with all the other cultures here that we befriended.

I think you know the truth already, when you saw how fine evrything is on the streets here. That we dont treat muslims any differently. There is no racism, but valid problems with primitive values, and alot of ppl who dont grasp the word racism.

Yeah I heard that Theo got shot, and that they didn't want to cut her clit off, but "sercumsize" her (you know, same word as "snipping your foreskin" as jews do). Which isn't cutting it off, they basicly sew it up, and mess it up for life.

They did circumcise her. It means both cutting off the clit and sewing it up. Muslims from Somalia living in Holland regularly go on a trip to Africa with their daughters to get it done.

[RD]

I took this picture today:

Two wrapped up muslims, sitting next to an image of an unwrapped muslimgirly. I just thought it was funny

[mabufo]

It basically means we have no problem with other skincolors, cultures or religions at all.

And yet, here you are saying that their culture is bad because they oppress women You can wrap it in as much patriotism and the american flag all you want, its not black and white. It has been their religion and culture for longer than your family goes back, yes there are cruel persons there too, but if it had been half as bad as you think it was something would've happened a long time ago.

Isn't RD from the netherlands? Anyway, just because whatever culture someone belongs to has been around for a long time - it doesn't mean that it can be morally justified - I'd wager that the women who put up with this stuff face the risk of something bad happening to them if they drift from it. Look at the damn Sharia laws, it's all there.

[kuebel]

What a long read!

I didn't really get the part about your queen not shaking hands with them, or rather, why they wouldn't shake hands with her. What's the reason?

The "tolerance of intolerance" you're describing is something I know very well and sadly, those people who speak up for this "tolerance of intolerance" often get supported by others just for the sake of political correctness. Here in Germany, it is hard to express your (in my point of view rather rational) opinion on those topics without being marked as a racist, nazi or whatever with the history our country has.

For example: We had a case where a German politician (Martin Hohmann) who was the mayor of the city he held a speech in on the day of our national holiday, saying that we [the Germans] should be proud to be Germans, more patriotic, displayed some inequities like the fact that our generation, which has got nothing much to do with the deeds of the WW2 era generation in terms of the question of guilt, is still being held responsible and marked as nazis etc etc, and, which sparked the whole discussion about it, that the term "Tätervolk (nation of perpetrators)" could also be applied to the communist Jews acting in the years of the Russian revolution (the cleansing of basically everyone who was not with but against the communist party). But then he said, that that term shouldn't be applied to the nation itself, but only to "the godless" (both the Bolsheviks and members of the NSDAP (National Socialist German Worker Party) weren't connected to any religion after they entered the party).

Problem was, too many people only saw an anti-semitic rant in his speech, although there was no direct proof given by the speech itself, his true intentions being anti-semitic or not (most of the key points about the Jews were written subjunctively, but I'd say it was rather a speech to give the Germans more self-esteem).

The actions taken after the speech were rather pathetic.

After the press was noticed of the speech, his party, the CDU (Christian Democrats Union) wanted him to step down and the German general of the German special forces of that time (Brigade-General Reinhard Günzel) was immediately relieved of his command after he sent a letter to Hohmann in which he congratulated him for the speech.

This doesn't have much to do with the Islam topic, but I think it captures a little of what you mean in general.

(Hohmann speech in German: http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/2003/11/hohmann-3.htm

Wikipedia entry on Hohmann: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Hohmann

Some text about the case; looks like it's on some anti-Jews page : http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters/mueller13.htm)

As for the integration; I don't know anything of Dutch integration politics, but here in Germany, they are as good as nonexistent.

But they cannot solely blame the politics; when I see Turkish people who have a German passport, living in Germany for over 20 years or whatever but still not able to speak German properly or half decent, it makes me angry when those people talk about how the integration fails or when they demand something. First thing I would do when I move to a different country would be to learn their damn language. Better yet before I move there, given the possibility.

And the youth isn't much better for a great part; we have so many degraded young people running around here, in families living off of welfare for more than one generation, insulting you when you just look "in the wrong way" at them; god help us when they grow up. As if the German retards wouldn't be enough already. At least they don't bother us as much as the Turkish do with their "OMG YOU INSULTED MY MOTHER/SISTER/ETC, I'M GONNA CUT YOU OPEN!" attitude, which leads me to the religion part.

My sister converted to Islam a year+ ago, after leading a what some would call "Western life"; now she's leading a life with all the stuff like wearing a headscarf, not shaking hands with other men (after she got married) and covering up her body. She's (Islamically) married to a Turk by the way; but that doesn't mean she converted for him, she decided the stuff for herself. Even he is rather against the hole covering up part and some of the "hardcore Islamic way" stuff she does. Like praying 5 times a day towards the East.

Now, from what I got out of discussions with her about Islam, it seems to be really the problem of how it is taught by people who do not stick 100% to the teachings of the Qu'aran and using the religion to their advantage.

I think it is even up to the woman if she wants to cover her self up or not, if I remember correctly, but I can check on that. I also think women have an equal position to men by the Qu'aran, but that is hardly pursued by the men who are in the higher position like the government or may it even be the village elder guys somewhere in a desert city.

She has studied the Qu'aran and all, so if anyone has a question, I can consult her. I think she's a reliable source.

[mabufo]

Tolerance is ignorance to your own morality.

[RD]

What a long read!

I didn't really get the part about your queen not shaking hands with them, or rather, why they wouldn't shake hands with her. What's the reason?

The "tolerance of intolerance" you're describing is something I know very well and sadly, those people who speak up for this "tolerance of intolerance" often get supported by others just for the sake of political correctness. Here in Germany, it is hard to express your (in my point of view rather rational) opinion on those topics without being marked as a racist, nazi or whatever with the history our country has.

For example: We had a case where a German politician (Martin Hohmann) who was the mayor of the city he held a speech in on the day of our national holiday, saying that we [the Germans] should be proud to be Germans, more patriotic, displayed some inequities like the fact that our generation, which has got nothing much to do with the deeds of the WW2 era generation in terms of the question of guilt, is still being held responsible and marked as nazis etc etc, and, which sparked the whole discussion about it, that the term "Tätervolk (nation of perpetrators)" could also be applied to the communist Jews acting in the years of the Russian revolution (the cleansing of basically everyone who was not with but against the communist party). But then he said, that that term shouldn't be applied to the nation itself, but only to "the godless" (both the Bolsheviks and members of the NSDAP (National Socialist German Worker Party) weren't connected to any religion after they entered the party).

Problem was, too many people only saw an anti-semitic rant in his speech, although there was no direct proof given by the speech itself, his true intentions being anti-semitic or not (most of the key points about the Jews were written subjunctively, but I'd say it was rather a speech to give the Germans more self-esteem).

The actions taken after the speech were rather pathetic.

After the press was noticed of the speech, his party, the CDU (Christian Democrats Union) wanted him to step down and the German general of the German special forces of that time (Brigade-General Reinhard Günzel) was immediately relieved of his command after he sent a letter to Hohmann in which he congratulated him for the speech.

This doesn't have much to do with the Islam topic, but I think it captures a little of what you mean in general.

(Hohmann speech in German: http://www.hagalil.com/archiv/2003/11/hohmann-3.htm

Wikipedia entry on Hohmann: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Hohmann

Some text about the case; looks like it's on some anti-Jews page : http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters/mueller13.htm)

Thats pretty much what happens here on a daily basis. When a politician uses the word Islam, he is in big trouble. Many ppl have been forced to step down or do it voluntarily after the party they leaded betrayed them.

The only politicians that survive are the ones that want to fix integration problems by building the biggest mosque of Europe in their city (Zaandam).

Our integration plan is to always look at Islam positive and treat it equal without thought, even tho its their religion to treats others unequally. When theres a radical imam and a wild neighbourhood, we dont send him away to morocco, but a minister drops by to have a respectful chat, without shoes ofcourse. Then playgrounds, clubs and new mosques are built for them because we believe that the problems come from their boredom. The problem cant be Islam, because our law tells us to treat evrybody equally. In other words its politically correct to blame it on evrything but Islam. Its depressing to see how few ppl can think outside of political correctness.

My sister converted to Islam a year+ ago, after leading a what some would call "Western life"; now she's leading a life with all the stuff like wearing a headscarf, not shaking hands with other men (after she got married) and covering up her body. She's (Islamically) married to a Turk by the way; but that doesn't mean she converted for him, she decided the stuff for herself. Even he is rather against the hole covering up part and some of the "hardcore Islamic way" stuff she does. Like praying 5 times a day towards the East.

Now, from what I got out of discussions with her about Islam, it seems to be really the problem of how it is taught by people who do not stick 100% to the teachings of the Qu'aran and using the religion to their advantage.

I think it is even up to the woman if she wants to cover her self up or not, if I remember correctly, but I can check on that. I also think women have an equal position to men by the Qu'aran, but that is hardly pursued by the men who are in the higher position like the government or may it even be the village elder guys somewhere in a desert city.

She has studied the Qu'aran and all, so if anyone has a question, I can consult her. I think she's a reliable source.

Your sister converted to Islam? Wow that is some heavy shit.

Like Mabufo said: Tolerance in this case is ignorance to your own morality. Westerners that convert believe their own values were inferior to this new interesting religion that is so modest and polite, but they will discover that these values are forced. And all your sisters muslim friends will betray her when she converts back.

Anyways western muslims are almost by default more extreme than muslims that were born in an Islamic countries. Muslims that were born in Islamic countries barely know the Quran, but only a very practical daily life kind of culture.

Western converts study the books and search a "pure" scholar that can teach them true Islam, and then they try to live like it, which is pretty extreme. Its not just the koran, because if Islam was just the koran there would be no veils or headscarves today. Islam is a mix of culture and religion, where men have the right to freely choose which part to force on women as religion, and women respect their and others lack of freedom out of love for Allah.

The Koran btw, says a man should beat his wife if she disobeys. If your sister comes to a diffrent conclusion then dont be humble and think she knows better. Enlighten her.

Also your sister saying that women have the free choice to cover herself up, is the big lie. Even tho the Koran doesnt tell her to cover herself up, the other books say something like "the righteous woman covers herself up" and "Its better to cover up". If you have any reading skills you see this means a woman who doesnt cover herself isnt righteous, and a women that does cover herself is better. Muslims treat such women accordingly, it is only accepted in the most unislamic environments.

The choice is also what makes women proud to weir a veil. They believe they are making the right choice, where there is actually no choice at all. Either youre righteous, or youre not, either you make the right choice, or you make a mistake.

(4:34) The men are made responsible for the women, ** and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

[RD]

For anyone that finds it interesting, a video of a dutch woman walking around Amsterdam with a Burka to see how ppl react. Its funny

Clix

[⌐■_■]

that's a very colored view on dutch tolerance. the only opinion worthy of forming after watching it, is that this lady doesnt know how things work... lol