The Downfall of the Netherlands

[RD]

I know this happens, I know there are a lot of muslim women mistreated.. and I do not disagree with it at all. I dont really know what you are trying to say.. that the queen approves with this behavior? Because Im sure thats not the case also. You are acting like its them versus us and we are surrendering.

It was an example to show which way the integration is going. They arent integrating or giving up any of their values, but we are adapting to them to avoid confrontations. I can give you many other examples including a ww2 monument which was removed to please a nearby Mosque. We are way too modest in what we expect of them.

By the way, alot of western women are also mistreated and hardly leave their homes, but you hardly hear about those i think.. they arnt as noticable as women wearing headscarves. But its very close, i know women who had this happen to them.

You almost literally say something which is written in the article (maybe you should read it ).

After all everyone is everything; everyone is homosexual, sadistic, racist, anti-social, aggressive, suicidal, etcetera. The question is to what extent. But that seems irrelevant for the Dutch. As far as they're concerned evil is evil. And because the statistics show that among the Dutch occasionally someone loses his self control, a child stole some candy, a woman hit the table with her fist, a police officer pretended not to see his son j-walking, that means that they are just as short fused, thieving, aggressive, and corrupt as any other people.

So far I fortunately was never infected with this self-pessimism of the Dutch, but the little bit of optimism I had was totally shattered when I discovered the highest authority in the field of optimism were the same self-pessimistic Dutch, with the possible exception of the Ostrich, of course. Pleasant, nice, friendly, excellent, wonderful, classy, delightful, lovely are their magic words that can turn all evil into good and can straighten out everything that is bent.

The diffrence is that islamic women are abused because of a single cause, the husband believes it is Islam, and the woman also begins to believe its Allah will. She will proudly wear the veil.

If you knew men beating their wifes, and you knew the cause, wouldnt you confront it? Why not confront Islam? You believe youd be a racist?

And yeah i dont live here very long yet, but long enough to notice differences with where i come from. Immigrants are alot less conservative here. Its alot worse in belgium and france where immigrants got totally ignored (especially in france as we can now see).

Racism is coming from both sides but on a whole diffrent scale. Have you ever seen a westerner work in a kebab shop, or any other islamic business? Do they ever hire westerners? Do they marry ppl with diffrent skin colors, diffrent religions? Arent they plain racist towards gays? What do they think of women who dont wear veils?

Its not racism to treat racists differently, its forcing them to adapt.

I have muslim friends, no extremist ones though. At my previous job one of my collegues was a muslim. He was a pretty fundamentalist believer of his religion, he also didnt believe in evolution, but only because he never had a great education. I believe proper education can solve problems of the future and feel holland is going the right path with this.

Like i said, you cant see someones believes and you cant possibly see how extreme someone is. The true nature of a man isnt shown untill you put him to the test. I know hundreds of muslims, even some of my best friends are muslims. These are some of the best integrated ppl i know, but ive heard them say surprising things. One guy said he would beat his wife if she even looked at another guy, and another suddenly started talking about how these beheadings show that muslims arent afraid of Americans. Just test someone before you conclude that hes ok because of his smile.

I understand where your views are coming from, but you are overreacting alot. There isnt going to be a downfall of holland any time soon

You havent understood my views at all. I guess i have to quote myself:

I dont believe the apocalypse is coming for Holland but we are moving backwards to avoid confrontations with Islam.

It wont be an apocalypse. Things are moving very slowly but already Islam has transformed Holland in the past decade. Artists are getting murdered and threatened and our politicians are hiding. The worst thing is that ppl are angry at the artists or politicians for messing with Islam. Basically ppl are adapting to dhimmitude and we backstab ppl that confront it because we dont want any violence.

[RD]

One of my ex-girlfriends is muslim and she's pretty normal as far as clothing goes. She probably wouldn't wear kinky stuff like a mini skirt though. The religion is pretty clear about the fact that muslim women shouldn't dress kinky and look "sexy" in the sense of lying on a beach in a bikini where hundres of men can stare at them... They are not supposed to show certain areas of their body in public but they respect that and live with it. It's that simple.

Integration doesn't mean you have to abandon your roots and core beliefs.

Would it be okay if they transformed Canada into Iran then, seeing you have no problem with the culture? Holland is a tiny tiny country and you really dont know how tolerant you are untill "your put to the test"

Also i found this funny:

Many of them probably don't even WANT to dress sexy because they'd feel uncomfortable. It's just a matter of how you are brought up and what you are told is wrong and right.

But what if you DID wanted to dress sexy??? Wheres the freedom? Maybe there in Canada your gf would get away with it (except near her family and muslim friends), but when your country is dominantly Islamic, she would have no chance. Yes, that is ISLAM. And you are tolerant of it because its not the dominant religion there.

If there is even one single girl feeling like that here in Holland then something is seriously wrong.

[kleinluka]

[Would it be okay if they transformed Canada into Iran then, seeing you have no problem with the culture? Holland is a tiny tiny country and you really dont know how tolerant you are untill your put to the test.

Isn't that what the coalition forces are doing to Iraq right now? (and possibly soon to Iran as well) They walked in and are turning it into a democracy. Canada already is a largely immigrant populated country but people respect eachother and eachother's beliefs for the most part. You can't tell a family to give up their beliefs and values simply because they moved to an other country. Yes they will have to adapt but they shouldn't be asked to abandon their core roots as long as they are socially bearable (no violence, no locking people up, etc.) And trust me my tolarance level has been tested many times and it wasn't always fun.

But what if you DID wanted to dress sexy??? Wheres the freedom? Maybe there in Canada your gf would get away with it (except near her family and muslim friends), but when your country is dominantly Islamic, she would have no chance. Yes, that is ISLAM. And you are tolerant of it because its not the dominant religion there.

If there is even one single girl feeling like that here in Holland then something is seriously wrong.

I hear what you are saying. The dominant religion in Holland is Islam (because of the muslim imigrants?) and they are forcing their values onto the dutch people. I don't agree with that either. I agree people should have the liberty to do whatever they want internally within the family but that they should have to respect the values and traditions of the country they live in. Muslim women have always had it rough... So if lets say a muslim Indian girl grew up in Holland under the rule of her islamic parents then she would be totally under their control. No questions asked. That's the way it goes sadly. Unfortunately you can't force people to give up their traditions.

Personally I'm all for a stricter integration test before visa issuance to "test" what the prospected immigrant's opinions are on certain things and to test if they would be able to smoothly blend into the local society. If they fail the test they don't get the visa.

[st0lve]

RD, I really don't see what you are so afraid of? You must really hate everything labeled "muslim" or "islam"..

You seem so afraid of everything the muslims do, anything from not having christians, jews or catholics working at their kebab shops (which is probably because their meat is slaughtered and threated in a special way) to wearing clothes that their religion wants them to wear.

If you ask me, the Netherlands got bigger things to worry about, like this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053101884.html

[RD]

Isn't that what the coalition forces are doing to Iraq right now? (and possibly soon to Iran as well) They walked in and are turning it into a democracy. Canada already is a largely immigrant populated country but people respect eachother and eachother's beliefs for the most part. You can't tell a family to give up their beliefs and values simply because they moved to an other country. Yes they will have to adapt but they shouldn't be asked to abandon their core roots as long as they are socially bearable (no violence, no locking people up, etc.) And trust me my tolarance level has been tested many times and it wasn't always fun.

No, thats not what the coalition is doing in Iraq. Democracy is a tool allowing ppl to have their say. Theres a big difference. You would never know if they want democracy or not if you cant hear their voices.

The only values theyre asked to abandon here is intolerance and oppression. There is no excuse for racism or oppression, not even if its a religion which 9 out of 10 of them follow willingly. Its kind of a paradox that you believe its tolerant to let others be oppressive.

I hear what you are saying. The dominant religion in Holland is Islam (because of the muslim imigrants?) and they are forcing their values onto the dutch people. I don't agree with that either. I agree people should have the liberty to do whatever they want internally within the family but that they should have to respect the values and traditions of the country they live in. Muslim women have always had it rough... So if lets say a muslim Indian girl grew up in Holland under the rule of her islamic parents then she would be totally under their control. No questions asked. That's the way it goes sadly. Unfortunately you can't force people to give up their traditions.

The muslim woman thats under total control of her family will be sent back to India to marry a guy she has never met and have children 9 months later, while being beaten and locked inside the house and thats ok with you?

Btw, Islam isnt the dominant religion here. Its atheism, after that Christianity and then Islam.

[RD]

RD, I really don't see what you are so afraid of? You must really hate everything labeled "muslim" or "islam"..

You seem so afraid of everything the muslims do, anything from not having christians, jews or catholics working at their kebab shops (which is probably because their meat is slaughtered and threated in a special way) to wearing clothes that their religion wants them to wear.

If you ask me, the Netherlands got bigger things to worry about, like this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/31/AR2006053101884.html

What would i be afraid of? Let me guess you didnt read anything i wrote and believe i fear for the day that Islam will conquer our government and hate all muslims and islam. Jesus St0lve go read the article and my replies.

[st0lve]

So you actually believe in that article? That the downfall will come?

[RD]

The article isnt talking about an apocalypse. The downfall is that we lose our values of tolerance because we are tolerant of intolerance (i know this is deep but try to understand it).

St0lve just one question for you. Say you actually knew a muslim girl, which was sent out to marry some hardcore muslim in an islamic state, and she flees and her murderous family wants to kill her. What would you do?

From what ive seen, you'd call anybody that helps her a racist because its against Islam. If you had actually read anything i ever wrote you wouldve seen i dont hate Islam or headscarves, but the religion being forced on ppl that dont want it.

[kleinluka]

The muslim woman thats under total control of her family will be sent back to India to marry a guy she has never met and have children 9 months later, while being beaten and locked inside the house and thats ok with you?

Before you accuse others of not reading what you're writing make sure you read what others are writing. I clearly said "Yes they will have to adapt but they shouldn't be asked to abandon their core roots as long as they are socially bearable (no violence, no locking people up, etc.)" so no, I'm not ok with it. Oh and BTW, you'd be surprised at how many muslim women are actually PRO arranged marriage. As crazy as it sounds.

[RD]

Before you accuse others of not reading what you're writing make sure you read what others are writing. I clearly said "Yes they will have to adapt but they shouldn't be asked to abandon their core roots as long as they are socially bearable (no violence, no locking people up, etc.)" so no, I'm not ok with it.

The husband living in India obviously doesnt have to adapt to Holland. You just didnt mention if its socially bearable to be sent away to marry a stranger. Isnt that an acceptable thing for you? Because you didnt mention it. Might as well also mention the headscarve because it means you will get punished for not wearing it. Just like converting, going to the beach etc etc.

[st0lve]

A girl I went in class with, she went to Libanon last summer to marry a guy. She wanted it, cause it would "secure" her a place to live, eat and sleep, aswell as getting a famely.

As for the question:

If she doesn't want to marry that "hardcore muslim" guy in an Islamic country\state, and she flees, where does she flee? Does she go to the police? Or to friends and such? Anyway, there have been quite a few of those cases here in Norway, and most of the girls went to the police, the parents get outrageous, but they know that they cannot do anything, and they mostly move out of the country in anger and hate.

In that case, it's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of what the parents want, it's in their culture to arrange marriages.

And don't forget that there are people who actually WANT to follow the koran by every single word, that want to use headscarves. Not every muslim hates Islam. You just hear about those who do, because they get much attetion.

[RD]

A girl I went in class with, she went to Libanon last summer to marry a guy. She wanted it, cause it would "secure" her a place to live, eat and sleep, aswell as getting a famely.

As for the question:

If she doesn't want to marry that "hardcore muslim" guy in an Islamic country\state, and she flees, where does she flee? Does she go to the police? Or to friends and such? Anyway, there have been quite a few of those cases here in Norway, and most of the girls went to the police, the parents get outrageous, but they know that they cannot do anything, and they mostly move out of the country in anger and hate.

In that case, it's not a matter of religion, it's a matter of what the parents want, it's in their culture to arrange marriages.

And don't forget that there are people who actually WANT to follow the koran by every single word, that want to use headscarves. Not every muslim hates Islam. You just hear about those who do, because they get much attetion.

Islam is much more than just a religion, its a whole culture, including arranged marriages and many other things depending what country youre coming from. The fact that some women do it by free will is irrelevant. The fact that its a culture and not a religion is even more irrelevant. What are you going to say to a girl that doesnt want it? That most women want it so whats the problem? That its not a religion that forces her but a culture?

Anyways you make it sound like a small thing, the angry parents. The parents are probably the most moderate generation of muslims living in the West, but even they oppress their daughters. They actually stab their own kids in the back when these decide to use the freedom the West offers them. There is no self criticism in Islam and there is nobody stopping it when it goes out of control. Honourkillings, beatings and women being locked up, the only ones who do something are our police, and only when its already too late.

When you see someone wearing a headscarve, you can think its only a piece of clothing, and youre so tolerant. Its very easy to just ignore it.

But if you have any intelligence, you know that shes not wearing it because it looks nice. Today its unfortunately a symbol for some sick values, and if its not of these values, its a symbol of tolerance of sick values (i think mostly the latter). Its not racist to connect these dots. Im not treating them differently, i treat them exactly the same way as when some western guy beats his wife or sends his kids to a country they have never been to have sex with a stranger, willingly or not.

Now imagine the kids fleeing, and the parents murderously angry. How could you tolerate such evil in Norway? Its not western, its ancient african.

You cant possibly believe its tolerant to accept such values, its exactly the opposite. Anyways, the downfall of dutch culture is when we accept such things because of freedom of religion. Im not afraid of muslims taking over, but worried about how few ppl see it my genius way

[Polaris]

Its not western, its ancient african.

You mean like ancient egyptians? They were fairly advanced back when your ancestors were probably still running half naked through the woods and sacrificing virgins (wich their descendents of course accused the jews of doing) :roll:

But seriously your over reacting. I used to think along similar lines (my school has around a 70% muslim population) but I got over it. There is no real permanent threat from Islam. The west won't "surrender" to to it.

[mabufo]

Live how you want, follow whatever religion you like... but when what you follow is being imposed on me, we have a problem.

Things like seperate Islamic sharia law courts are no good either... but we've already had a thread about that.

[RD]

Its not western, its ancient african.

You mean like ancient egyptians? They were fairly advanced back when your ancestors were probably still running half naked through the woods and sacrificing virgins (wich their descendents of course accused the jews of doing) :roll:

But seriously your over reacting. I used to think along similar lines (my school has around a 70% muslim population) but I got over it. There is no real permanent threat from Islam. The west won't "surrender" to to it.

Its not about an apocalyps or all of our ppl bowing on the streets to surrender. Its happening inside your head so slowly you didnt even know it. You got used to a certain level of violence/evil or whatever you want to call it, and its acceptable for you as long as its bearable.

Since when was it ok to be sent away to an Islamic State against your will? Not so long ago, if someone defended that kind of shit he would be called an ape and his religion a cult that our government wipes out.

Theres nobody here denying that it happens, and that the majority of the moderate muslims defend these values. That none of you has any problem with that proves the prophecy of this book.

Btw primitive Africans ARE our ancestors :wink: