In war its interrogation, not torture you dumb U.N.!

[The Postman]

If we're in a war, how come they aren't accorded POW rights?

Because we have an Att. Gen. that referred to the Geneva Conventions as "quaint."

Gonzales authored a controversial memo in January of 2002 that explored whether Article III of the Geneva Convention even applied to Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters captured in Afghanistan and held in concentration facilities around the world, including Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The memo made several arguments both for and against providing Article III protection to Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. He concluded that Article III was outdated and ill-suited for dealing with captured Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. He described as "quaint" the provisions that require providing captured Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters "commissary privileges, scrip, athletic uniforms, and scientific instruments". He also argued that existing military regulations and instructions from the President were more than adequate to ensure that the principles of the Geneva Convention would be applied. He also argued that undefined language in the Geneva Convention, such as "outrages upon personal dignity" and "inhuman treatment", could make officials and military leaders subject to the War Crimes Act of 1996 if mistreatment was discovered.

[Scraps]

If we're in a war, how come they aren't accorded POW rights?

Because we have an Att. Gen. that referred to the Geneva Conventions as "quaint."

Holy crap, that sounds like an answer to a relevant question. Are you sure that was Gonzales saying that? You must have caught him on the third week of the third month of a leap year because for as far as I know, he doesn't answer relevant questions.

[Lurker]

A U.N. investigation has concluded that the United States committed acts amounting to torture at Guantanamo Bay.

American officials said the most significant flaw of the report was that it judged U.S. treatment of detainees according to peacetime human rights laws. The United States contends it is in a state of conflict and should be judged according to the laws of war.

So torture is not torture when in a war?

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/02/13/un ... index.html

If we're in a war, how come they aren't accorded POW rights?

Technically, it's not a war, except everyone including Congress and the President calls it a war. So it isn't a war, but it is? See?

Yeah, I was and am just as confused.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a classic tale of treating your enemies with the respect you would want your own people to be treated by your enemy iif they happened to be captured. Seriously, POWs and those kidnapped in iIraq et al are just as deserving to life as everyone else, but I find it hard to give out sympathy to those policy-makers who deem it necessary to add fine print the legislation so they have a loophole big enough to torture people without consequence.

For being such Christian people, I fail to see why the White House still harbours not a good bone in their collective body.

[mawibse]

Mawibse, what would it take for you to admit that we torture people?

Nothing, if you think that sleep deprivation is torture then fine, then we torture.

But I'd like to point out that sleep deprivation is a long step from pulling fingernails and electro treatment to testicles, at least in my book.

If we're in a war, how come they aren't accorded POW rights?

POW's are accorded POW's rights, but those in Guantanamo is not because they broke the laws of war; like using civilians as shields, wearing civilian clothes and not a unified uniform, using not allowed tactics such as pretending to be medical staff and such. You know, basic Geneva stuff.

Technically, it's not a war

Because?

As far as I'm concerned, this is a classic tale of treating your enemies with the respect you would want your own people to be treated by your enemy iif they happened to be captured.

War isn't as noble as you think it is. You KILL your enemies.

When someone KILLS your friends its damn hard to having respect towards those who did it. Especially when they constantly break the Geneva conventions, cut their captured prisoners heads off and knowingly targets civilians.

I find it hard to give out sympathy to those policy-makers who deem it necessary to add fine print the legislation so they have a loophole big enough to torture people without consequence.

I agree that there shouldn't be any changes in legislations for such, if you need to step outside the conventional interrogation methods there should be possible consequences enough so you don't do it to often.

[RD]

Mawibse, what would it take for you to admit that we torture people?

Nothing, if you think that sleep deprivation is torture then fine, then we torture.

But I'd like to point out that sleep deprivation is a long step from pulling fingernails and electro treatment to testicles, at least in my book.

Sleep deprivation AKA unlimited solitary confinement in rooms filled with strobing lights and white noise, naked, exposed to extreme heat and cold and chained in positions that are designed to cause maximum stress on the muscles . After 5 minutes you will wish they pulled your nails out. The only step down the ladder is there are no visible scars

[neotic]

A U.N. investigation has concluded that the United States committed acts amounting to torture at Guantanamo Bay.

American officials said the most significant flaw of the report was that it judged U.S. treatment of detainees according to peacetime human rights laws. The United States contends it is in a state of conflict and should be judged according to the laws of war.

So torture is not torture when in a war?

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/02/13/un ... index.html

If we're in a war, how come they aren't accorded POW rights?

They don't have uniforms, aren't recognized by the standing army of any nation, etc.

[The Postman]

They don't have uniforms, aren't recognized by the standing army of any nation, etc.

So that makes it okay to torture them? Wow, how humane. Glad we're not above that as a "civilized" nation.

On topic with the thread, 15 new Abu Grahib photos came out today! Huzzah!

http://smh.com.au/ftimages/2006/02/15/1139890771134.html

I call this one: "We do not torture."

[neotic]

They don't have uniforms, aren't recognized by the standing army of any nation, etc.

So that makes it okay to torture them? Wow, how humane. Glad we're not above that as a "civilized" nation.

On topic with the thread, 15 new Abu Grahib photos came out today! Huzzah!

http://smh.com.au/ftimages/2006/02/15/1139890771134.html

I call this one: "We do not torture."

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't know of any international recognized document concerning prisoners of war treatment outside of the Geneva Convention and that stipulates very many things, such as uniforms, recognized as a standing army of a nation, etc. I did not defend or deny Abu Grahib's actions. Pipe down before you hurt yourself.

[The Postman]

You're putting words in my mouth. I don't know of any international recognized document concerning prisoners of war treatment outside of the Geneva Convention and that stipulates very many things, such as uniforms, recognized as a standing army of a nation, etc. I did not defend or deny Abu Grahib's actions.

That's all fine and dandy but it comes off as defense of current actions when you point out the reasons in the manner you did.

Pipe down before you hurt yourself.

Oh honey, hush.

[von*ferret]

I love how you keep bringing up Abu Graib as though that were how we are supposed to interrogate people. It was a confined location in which a select number of individuals decided to act in a very inhumane way and are being punished by it. Your come back about how you basicaly expect its written that EVERYONE in our military does that and is directed to do that is simply sad. Its depressing that you put such a low standard to the individuals serving for our country. If I was serving and were ordered to do those things, I would simply deny the order and go to my superiors. And I'm sure that I'm not the minority on this.

Further more the detainees deserve no Geneva Conventions. Those conventions were designed for people who follow them theirselves. Does that mean that we should torture people? Definately not. But I reserve the word torture for the inhumane things that the Nazi's, Stalin, and Cambodians did to eachother and others. Such things as, killing, knocking out teeth, putting you on a table and removing it so you freefall and hurt yourself, little or no food for their confinement, tucked away in hidden prisons for however long they feel like, killing, removing limbs, crap like that. How DARE we forcefeed people who are tring to go on hunger strikes. Yeah what we do I would not like done to myself or my family, but you seem to forget that the people who are detained were detained for a reason. A number of them I'm sure would love to be the ones who cut a living human being's head HALF WAY off and let the poor HUMAN BEING gasp his last breaths of air until they die, and then cut the REST of the HEAD off and put it on their dead corpse. ON VIDEO. Maybe you should check out that video one more time and relate to the countless people being kidnapped and persecuted simply because they're not Arab and have western ideals. Maybe then you would find that your compassion faltering for these individuals. You act like every individual in Gitmo is treated with our "torturing" methods. Why dont you point out that there are tiers of our treatment, and the more cooperative you are, the better treatment you get. Hell they get to play soccer. Our tortorous methods you are so diligantly fighting against include reading harry potter and playing brittany spears/metallica to break down their mental barricades and create relationships. The act of getting into someone's head and creating bonds between interrogaters and subjects is way more effective than beating them. And THAT is documented as an American method of interrogating. Not beating them, dressing them down, and making them get in Pyramids.

Do I have any sympathy for people in Gitmo? No not really. The ones I do are the ones who are confined who do not deserve it. And those ones seem to be the ones who cooperate, give what information they do know, and are released, as is documented. Yeah people are uncomfortable, but them being uncomfortable has lead to such revalations as other attacks planned on LA, oil pipes, and our bridges. So my safety and safety of countless other individuals who do not deserve to suffer is worth their discomfort.

[The Postman]

I love how you keep bringing up Abu Graib as though that were how we are supposed to interrogate people. It was a confined location in which a select number of individuals decided to act in a very inhumane way and are being punished by it.

It was also found that the general in charge was taking orders from above and that person was never punished and everyone else got a slap on the wrist. These actions are supported by the army and her forces from top to bottom. The methods used are documented and defined. Coersion by force is torture any way you slice it.

Your come back about how you basicaly expect its written that EVERYONE in our military does that and is directed to do that is simply sad.

Did I say everyone in the military does it? No. Did I say that it occurs and is disgusting? Yes. You're jumping to hyperbole here.

Its depressing that you put such a low standard to the individuals serving for our country. If I was serving and were ordered to do those things, I would simply deny the order and go to my superiors. And I'm sure that I'm not the minority on this.

WHY DON'T YOU SUPPORT OUR TROOPS?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Further more the detainees deserve no Geneva Conventions. Those conventions were designed for people who follow them theirselves.

So that means we should abandon them ourselves? Wow, your humanity and civility are as shallow as a wading pool.

Does that mean that we should torture people? Definately not. But I reserve the word torture for the inhumane things that the Nazi's, Stalin, and Cambodians did to eachother and others.

Godwin's law. Raising Nazis. Your hypocrisy is shining through here, Ferret. You say we shouldn't torture people and then go on to say that we're clearly not torturing people regardless of evidence so long as our troops carry the American and not the Nazi, Russian or Khmer Rouge flag. Let's not have double standards, one's enough.

Such things as, killing

There has been at least one torture related death that we know about.

knocking out teeth

We do this already. Have you not seen the pictures?

putting you on a table and removing it so you freefall and hurt yourself,

We tie people upside down with bags on their heads. We put them in extreme heat and cold after beatings.

little or no food for their confinement

We force-feed 'nutrients' which is pretty much just waterboarding with some soup.

tucked away in hidden prisons for however long they feel like

We allegedly do that. CIA, Poland, ironic placement of secret prisons ahoy!

killing, removing limbs, crap like that.

Phew! At least we're not removing limbs! You stated killing twice though.

Yeah what we do I would not like done to myself or my family, but you seem to forget that the people who are detained were detained for a reason.

Yeah, your civility is once again breathtaking. Of course they're there for a reason. Doesn't mean we should be torturing them.

A number of them I'm sure would love to be the ones who cut a living human being's head HALF WAY off and let the poor HUMAN BEING gasp his last breaths of air until they die, and then cut the REST of the HEAD off and put it on their dead corpse. ON VIDEO.

This is such a retarded argument I don't even know where to begin. First you're assuming before they're even given a trial that they're 100% certainly capable of going out and doing those deeds or that they're guilty first and foremost. Over here in the US of A I was pretty sure we had a standard of trial procedure. Being the pinnacle of justice and the spreaders of democracy that we are, shouldn't we keep those same standards alive on the battlefield? I guess not BECAUSE THEY MIGHT CAUSE PEOPLE TO CUT EACH OTHER UP ON VIDEO!!!!!!!1111oneoneone

Maybe you should check out that video one more time and relate to the countless people being kidnapped and persecuted simply because they're not Arab and have western ideals. Maybe then you would find that your compassion faltering for these individuals.

I've seen the videos. What those people have done is very wrong and should be punished. I don't see how this correlates to lowering ourselves to their level of barbary.

You act like every individual in Gitmo is treated with our "torturing" methods. Why dont you point out that there are tiers of our treatment, and the more cooperative you are, the better treatment you get. Hell they get to play soccer.

And you seem to act like the torture doesn't exist, is simply a "few bad apples" or is completely justified. Way to assume what I think about Gitmo, though.

Our tortorous methods you are so diligantly fighting against include reading harry potter and playing brittany spears/metallica to break down their mental barricades and create relationships.

HAHAHAHHA are you seriously calling that "creating relationships?" Man you're a sick puppy.

The act of getting into someone's head and creating bonds between interrogaters and subjects is way more effective than beating them. And THAT is documented as an American method of interrogating. Not beating them, dressing them down, and making them get in Pyramids.

Sure it's documented. We have pictures, we have testimony, we have people found guilty of implementing those illegal practices. Are you talking about them not being official policy? Well then we have a case of "not knowing either way."

Yeah people are uncomfortable, but them being uncomfortable has lead to such revalations as other attacks planned on LA, oil pipes, and our bridges. So my safety and safety of countless other individuals who do not deserve to suffer is worth their discomfort.

Ben Franklin hates you, Ferret.

PS: Fuck everyone else so long as my illusion of safety remains intact!

[mawibse]

Sleep deprivation AKA unlimited solitary confinement in rooms filled with strobing lights and white noise, naked, exposed to extreme heat and cold and chained in positions that are designed to cause maximum stress on the muscles . After 5 minutes you will wish they pulled your nails out. The only step down the ladder is there are no visible scars

Actually you just wish that whats "hurting" you would go away, and it usually does not involve painful removing of your nails cause that kinda hurts too.

And as a side note, similar experiences to what you described above is actually part of most special forces training in most western countries.

And in that combination it is considered fully fledged torture whom ever you ask.

Thats however pointed out during... after most of those exercises.

but them being uncomfortable has lead to such revalations as other attacks planned on LA, oil pipes, and our bridges. So my safety and safety of countless other individuals who do not deserve to suffer is worth their discomfort.

If we are still talking Gatmo I must say that the only reason for their detention now is that they might join the opposition again after release, not that they have any information we might need.

If I was serving and were ordered to do those things, I would simply deny the order and go to my superiors

Well it would be a superior who ordered you in the first place.

And the punishment for not carrying out an order from a superior will hit you allot faster and allot surer then a possible punishment of mistreatment of illegal combatants sometime in the future.

Im not defending their actions, just saying that its from the individual perspective for most militaries much better to carry out a bad order then to go behind your superiors back.

!!!!!!!1111oneoneone

Stop that... it breaks my concentration..

As a causal reflection Id like to point out that bad apples, for using the US military term, seems to be present on both sides, on our as torturing guards and on theirs as cutting of heads.

Both sucks for me on a personal moral level.

I think USA has lost allot of international credibility because of Gatmo and the reasons for going into Iraq.

Not sure how much important information or troops we would have lost if we had taken the "higher road" by going easier on captured enemies, this is no easy issue.