The root of all evil: the human being itself?

[RD]

To philosophise about free will

Oh... So you dont think free will is possible with "just" the brains making the decisions?

It is only logical that its not

Well there are some really big stumble blocks of free will for me even if you add a soul to the equation.

What makes the souls decisions more "free" then the brains?

IF there is a soul then the possibilities are endless. It could be fully conscious of itself. But its more likely that free will is just an illusion of our subconsciousness. Just look at animals, the thought of being robots never crosses their minds

[DaanO]

Mawibse, Nietzsche i assume? He's a madman, good writer though.

Anyway, my own thoughts on free will are all based on the undeniable awareness of itself (which is proven by doubt, which is the only thing one cannot doubt - the one thing Descartes based his philosophy on when he 'started all over'). It is my firm belief (and i'm getting closer to getting logical proof for this stand) that awareness cannot be explained only through physicial processes and that it can be traced back to a more pure level of reality which be can get a glance of through conscience. Read Immanuel Kant: He made his so-called Copernican turn dismissing the idea that we can see reality objectively and embraced the idea that we cannot go round some tools we need to interpret reality: time, space, causality, etc. He listed twelve (i think) of those categories. These 'glasses' we are wearing all the time are disguising this more pure reality and turn it into how we see the world. However, awareness cannot be explained in terms of these categories. Not because of a limited knowledge right now but because of a fundamental incompatibility. I've written an essay on the 'proof' (if you can speak of proof when it comes to philosophy) of this, but this is the basic idea.

[RD]

So now you agree with me because its logical. Excellent. We are making a little progress. As for the logical proof, just read all my posts again

[DaanO]

There are logical gaps in your proof, circular reasoning among them. All the time i agreed with you and i was aware of that i just disagree with the logic behind it.

[RD]

There are logical gaps in your proof, circular reasoning among them. All the time i agreed with you and i was aware of that i just disagree with the logic behind it.

Where is the gap then

[mawibse]

A paradoxic example for this paradigm, youre hungry and see 3 donuts, 1 pink and 2 black. Your first thought is to eat them, you have no control over this thought because its an impulse. Youre second thought is youre overweight. You have no control over this thought either, it is based on the memory of a recent heart attack. Youre decision not to eat the donuts is based off 2 thoughts you had no control over.

Lets go with your idea that the two "thoughts" dictating the decision is something you have no control over, how does this logically mean that the decision is something I have no control over?

Its like saying that if you could pick the two doors yourself, from which you will choose one, then it would be a free choice, but if someone else put the two doors there, then choosing one of them is not a free choice?

awareness cannot be explained only through physicial processes and that it can be traced back to a more pure level of reality which be can get a glance of through conscience

Why do you think awareness cannot be explained through physical processes only?

What does "a more pure level of reality" mean?

[DaanO]

Another description would be "an objective interpretation of". And i'll think of a way to explain why it cannot be explained (it's a web of thoughts in my head right now), in the meanwhile, please falsify the thought

Because of these 'glasses' i already explained we deform reality

[mawibse]

Falsify your thought, hmmm, how about questioning the reasons for this theory?

Ok so your a priori is awareness of yourself or that a 'I' exists, and you say that all a posteriori is distorted through 'glasses' or rather by the 'tools' we need to experience them.

So you got one a priori, and you dismissed all a posteriori, you will need a couple of more a priori to make logical reasoning concerning free will and its relation to awareness don't you think?

Give them to me and I will squash this theory like a fat bug.

[Taylor Swift]

The world is fucked up right now!

Once upon a time, there was the world, and it was good. Then people got all pissed off about everything, and there was violence and sin, and that was bad. Then people decided they needed a device to stop people from doing so much violence and sin, and there was Hell, and it was good for the bad people that is fucking the world up and destroing it.

Dante famously divided Hell into nine concentric circles of increasing nastiness, behind a gate with the logo "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here"

The signs of the apocalypse depend on your religious bent, but you might be in the apocalypse if you notice one or more of the following:

* Fire (whether nuclear or otherwise)

* Floods

* Pestilience (i.e., plague, anthrax, SARS, etc.)

* Wars

* Rumors of wars

* Strange lights in the skies

* The Second Coming (of whomever you happen to be expecting)

* A virgin birth

* The birth of the Antichrist

* Also a spree of false Christs and/or Messiahs

* Cloning

* Identifying marks being placed on the population at large

* Famine

* Earthquakes

* The Rapture

* Tornados, Hurricanes

Yeah and + the global warming.. It's allready coming..

The 2012 date appeals to a pretty wide demographic within the category of "people waiting for the end." It's potentially consistent with Nostradamus, for instance, based on the numbering of the popes (we've got two more to go and at least one of them meets a bad, early end). It's an exact date, which is always nice, and it also benefits from the application of what we shall loosely call "science" to the overall apocalyptic concept.

The other appeal of the 2012 theory is that it doesn't technically call for the "end of everything" or a "Last Judgment," eliminating the unpopular and potentially painful aspects of the apocalypse while keeping all the cool weird stuff.

The Mayan long count calendar is a list of days in the Fourth Sun, the current cycle of the world. The calendar simply ends on Dec. 21, 2012 (the winter solstice)

[mawibse]

Ehem, how about starting a "the end is near" thread instead of posting that in this thread?

[RD]

Lets go with your idea that the two "thoughts" dictating the decision is something you have no control over, how does this logically mean that the decision is something I have no control over?

Its like saying that if you could pick the two doors yourself, from which you will choose one, then it would be a free choice, but if someone else put the two doors there, then choosing one of them is not a free choice?

Because a conscious choice is made of thoughts too, the same thoughts or doors that were put there by someone else.

If you cant choose the doors at the beginning of your thought process CONSCIOUSLY, then you have no free choice of where you will end. One thought will go somewhere, another thought will go somewhere, up to the point what we call consciousness and meet each other. Then you believe you can make a conscious choice between the two.

But in order to make a conscious choice between the two, there has to be more thoughts than those two, or you wouldnt be able to think about the thoughts. You cant make a conscious choice without thinking.

Its so mindboggingly simple that its complex.

[The Postman]

The world is fucked up right now!

It's always been fucked up

Dante famously divided Hell into nine concentric circles of increasing nastiness, behind a gate with the logo "Abandon Hope, All Ye Who Enter Here"

Good thing Dante wasn't a prophet and not just writing fiction. His writings have no bearing on Christian (or any other) doctrine and only use it as a prop for his story.

The signs of the apocalypse depend on your religious bent, but you might be in the apocalypse if you notice one or more of the following:

* Fire (whether nuclear or otherwise) This always happens.

* Floods This also always happens,

* Pestilience (i.e., plague, anthrax, SARS, etc.) This always happens.

* Wars These always happen

* Rumors of wars hahahahhaha...didja hear? Like, Trudy is so warring on Angela right now, fer sure!

* Strange lights in the skies what?

* The Second Coming (of whomever you happen to be expecting) I can't get a rolleyes big enough for this.

* A virgin birth what?

* The birth of the Antichrist uh what?

* Also a spree of false Christs and/or Messiahs There have always been crazy people thinking they're Jesus or that their message is from God

* Cloning what?

* Identifying marks being placed on the population at large I can't get a rolleyes big enough for this.

* Famine This always happens.

* Earthquakes This always happens.

* The Rapture I can't get a rolleyes big enough for this.

* Tornados, HurricanesThese always happens.

Nostradamus was a vague quack, the Mayans simply stopped making their counter and if you honestly believe this shit you're a frickin' paranoid delusional idiot.

[mawibse]

Because a conscious choice is made of thoughts too, the same thoughts or doors that were put there by someone else.

Be they thoughts or doors, their origin is always from something we have no control over.

If you play the backtrack game, only if you where an omnipotent god would you have a free choice. Even a soul wouldn't help you there.

If you cant choose the doors at the beginning of your thought process CONSCIOUSLY, then you have no free choice of where you will end.

Because?

Say I have two thoughts I have no control over, but the choice between which one to go with, is a conscious DECISION.

But in order to make a conscious choice between the two, there has to be more thoughts than those two, or you wouldnt be able to think about the thoughts. You cant make a conscious choice without thinking.

Uhmm, two thoughts would be the ones you couldn't control and the third would be the conscious thought leading to the decision of which of the uncontrolled thoughts to go with.

Its so mindboggingly simple that its complex.

I think you oversimplified since I can't follow your logic.

Let me just add some additional reflections:

Thoughts might start off as uncontrolled but you can control where they go.

Consciousness is not just thoughts, it's the awareness of an 'I' as well.

You can have multiple consciousness at once or different, one at a time.

The feeling of having done something of free will has nothing to do with if your brain actually controlled what happened or vice versa.

[RD]

Consciousness is not just thoughts, it's the awareness of an 'I' as well.

And what is the awareness of an I made of if not of thoughts?

Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will, which is exactly what i said was the logical conclusion.

[mawibse]

And what is the awareness of an I made of if not of thoughts?

The same thing love or fear is made of, electrical currents in the brains.

You experience it much more then your thinking about it.

You have an awareness of an I without thinking about it.

Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will,

Yes the consciousness, it's a higher mental process.

Consciousness is more then just a bunch of uncontrolled thoughts though.

Basically you say there is something else than our thoughts that controls our will, which is exactly what i said was the logical conclusion.

No you said the logical conclusion was that there was a metaphysical soul making the decisions and feeding them to the brains.

Consciousness is quite physical as it is beyond a doubt originating from your brains.