The word of the day is "ridiculousity"

[Kosmo]

I didn't say that Chinese goverment doesn't control their population, but I just said that it's rather arbitrary to say Chinese goverment generally hate games and tries to stop it's population from "communicating" and using MMORPG as an example software of communication.

If Chinese goverment wanted to bring the hammer down to WoW, EQ etc. I think that they would just outlaw them. It doesn't seem like a goverment that has a solid grip on the balls of it's population would go around bashing some MMOG "for being hazardous to it's users."

But I'm saying that even if there is a judge crazy enough to accept something far fetched as "WoW making a kid jump off a building" I think Blizz has a solid base for a case that it's not true and their lawyer armies will just present undeniable proof as long as the suing family has money left to fight.

[mike-0]

blizzard must be good if it can control the reproduction of human beings

[Fletch]

I just said that it's rather arbitrary to say Chinese goverment generally hate games and tries to stop it's population from "communicating" and using MMORPG as an example software of communication.

The "Great Firewall of China" system blocks aboue 25% of the IP addresses on earth in order to prvent access to information. Search queries are filtered before results return. Chat rooms and message boards are aggressively filtered. Amnesty International reports over 100 Chinese political prisoners in jail on charges of improper bahavior online. Last year nearly 50,000 internet cafes were shut down in China. China exerted enough pressure to get Microsoft to help censor Chinese blogs.

There is a reason the government controls the newspaper, TV, telephone serivce, and radio. Information is power. Communications is power. Without those, widespread rebellion becomes nearly impossible. Even if hundreds of people riot and rebel in one province, there is no news coverage or communication to help the messge spread.

If Chinese goverment wanted to bring the hammer down to WoW, EQ etc. I think that they would just outlaw them.

The scary thing is the Chinese government is exceptionally good at what they do. If they were to just outright ban all video games or online games, there would be international retaliation. It all of sudden becomes news. Considering most of those games are made by America, it would probably lead to some trade sanctions (probably centering around technology), which China doesn't want to happen because they are really starting to emerge as a bigger player on the international stage.

So, no, they are not going to ban them. They'll legislate instead. Internet cafes are already operating under a 3 hour time limit. The govenrment also controls which games are created domestically and which are allowed to be imported. They basically control the market, and the market is good. This ia a multi-billion dollar industry in China. It keeps people employed, and the government gets a big user fee chunk from cafes. If the Chinese government just banned everything, that's a huge blow to local economies. So yes, it was wrong of me to say China hated video games. They just hate our video games. If you want to play video games made or financed by the Chinese government about Chinese history, how evil Japan is, or how to be a good Communist, they've got plenty.

As for the merits of the original case, I don't think it's going to end in favor of the family. But I think the Chinese government, who controls the newspapers and news outlets, will make a big deal out of the case to once again warns its citizens about how too much internet use can make you go crazy. And I think a lot of people will believe them.

[Kosmo]

It's basically what around half the countries in the world do, and most notably countries in middle-east, they block out internet sites that are anti-islam. Ban cartoons that they think are hazardous to children like pokemon.

It's sad, but you are absolutely right, China controls almost all mediums of informative media. But I don't believe that if China banned videogames that even USA has balls that big that they would set anykind of pressure on China, hell if Bush had his way, I believe he'd do it himself. And the Internet Cafe timelimits are most part there because of the health risk, it's not that common here, but in China, Japan, Korea, people die almost daily due to exhaustion.

China has banned games in the past, so why wouldn't they ban WoW just the same if they actually tought that it was so hazardous against the goverment. And what comes to political prisoners in China due to the improper use of internet, well, there are hackers in house arrests and in jail in USA and across Europe too. While I believe that China is over the top totalitarian goverment, I still don't think that China has such policy against games.

[Fletch]

The difference is I've actually talked to people who have been to China and seen this first hand. Chinese internet cafes are full of people between the ages of 15-30 who are tech-savy and more mindful that there is a world full of stuff outside of China. These are the people most likely to start any reformation against the current system (whether violent or peaceful). Internet cafes are pretty much the biggest form of socialization for this set. Schools are strict and often seperated (gender and economic status). Workplaces are regimented. These cafes provide a place where similar people whoa re complete straners can hang out, meet each other, and socialize. That is not a good thing for a totalitarian regime (again, you see this in the middle east a lot).

At KU, we had a Kansas-Asia Scholars program that sent a group of 30-40 students each semester to live for a few months in China and Japan. Since a lot of Poly Sci / International Studies students go on this, a bunch of my friends have taken part. Almost all of them has commented on how wierd they though Chinese Internet Cafes were. A couple of them tried to simply e-mail pictures from their digital cameras and had to be screened first. They still thought the cafes were neat, but there was a defiante big brother feel to them that they didn't see in similar places in Japan. Censorship is just a daily fact in China, right down to the games.

You can Google it all day long, so I'm not going to insult everybody's intelligence by repeatedly posting links, besides this sample: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3766023.stm

"Online games with content threatening state security, damaging the nation's glory, disturbing social order and infringing on other's legitimate rights will also be prohibited," said a Chinese Ministry of Culture statement carried by the official Xinhua news agency.

Personally, the thing I always find creepy is that Chinese news releases almost always play the "personal safety" card when banning things. To an outsider it seems wierd, but imagine having that blasted at you in the newspaper and on TV and radio every day of your life. If Americans live in a state of fear, the Chinese live in a state of fucking terror. The itnernet is dangerous for you. Having kids is dangerous for you. Eating foreign food is dangerous for you. Learning to read is dangerous for you. Driving is dnagerous for you. Blinking is dangerous for you.

[Kosmo]

yeah, well I guess you can understand why China is pretty pissed by game developers because they still portray China as some thirdworld nuclear threat, or something.

It was russians around decade ago, they did the same thing back then, banned books, movies and games that bashed the Russian way, the game and movie studios realized that they lost a major market there, and stopped it. Then it changed to China.

And I'm fairly sure that if you make a game where Americans are presented as evil nuclear weapon toting terrorists with agenda of evil and world domination, I know one country that will surely ban the game.

So, be objective on the matter, especially when it comes to games, China just has a Jack Thompson in charge of things.

And as for files getting screened, well, I can bet you one million dollars that other countries do that aswell, check some images sent from public machines to other countries, world has changed, the terrorist threat is a great excuse to push down human rights. China is just weird that way, they openly do these sort of things, when other countries have secret services and such. You could actually get in close attenttion for your friendly neighbourhood secret service during cold war if you went to the library and took communist manifest and other Marxist books from there often enough. The same is now with bomb building, chemistry books and books about fanatical islamists (that is IF your local library didn't already burn them.)

Terrorist threat, has gotten every country on their toes, and the recent game scandals have gotten alot of people more aware of "how dangerous" video games might be to their children - even if it is just propaganda.

[FrieChamp]

Moved to political discussion.

[Kosmo]

Yeah, this turned out political, when the intend was more satirical.

[RD]

yeah, well I guess you can understand why China is pretty pissed by game developers because they still portray China as some thirdworld nuclear threat, or something.

It was russians around decade ago, they did the same thing back then, banned books, movies and games that bashed the Russian way, the game and movie studios realized that they lost a major market there, and stopped it. Then it changed to China.

And I'm fairly sure that if you make a game where Americans are presented as evil nuclear weapon toting terrorists with agenda of evil and world domination, I know one country that will surely ban the game.

Halflife: us marines wipe out black mesa :roll: Lotsa games have America portrayed as nuclear evil, none are banned.

Anyways, you managed to make the connection between communist Russia, Jack Thompson and China, but apparently dont grasp what this means.

[Kosmo]

yeah, well I guess you can understand why China is pretty pissed by game developers because they still portray China as some thirdworld nuclear threat, or something.

It was russians around decade ago, they did the same thing back then, banned books, movies and games that bashed the Russian way, the game and movie studios realized that they lost a major market there, and stopped it. Then it changed to China.

And I'm fairly sure that if you make a game where Americans are presented as evil nuclear weapon toting terrorists with agenda of evil and world domination, I know one country that will surely ban the game.

Halflife: us marines wipe out black mesa :roll: Lotsa games have America portrayed as nuclear evil, none are banned.

Anyways, you managed to make the connection between communist Russia, Jack Thompson and China, but apparently dont grasp what this means.

Let me make a game where we rescue prisoners from guantanamo bay, drive American invading forces out of Iraq, defend Columbia against CIA and their war on drugs and assasinate the soldiers involved in planning the attack against the warlors in somalia and then say what isn't banned.

Are you actually using as fictitious material as Half-Life as an example? My god, your grip on reality is pretty loose.

I was wondering why USA didn't ban Aliens movie, they happened in future, had a big corporation and space aliens, I think the goverment should have been pretty pissed on that one.

I'm fairly sure that there are some middle eastern games that portray Americans as the terrorists and invaders, let's publish those there and let's soo how long they stay on the shelf, IF they even get in the stores that is.

Anyways, you managed to make the connection between communist Russia, Jack Thompson and China, but apparently dont grasp what this means.

My head would explode if I even started to realise what you are talking about. Are you implying that Soviet Union, Jack Thompson and China are the same?

[RD]

Let me make a game where we rescue prisoners from guantanamo bay, drive American invading forces out of Iraq, defend Columbia against CIA and their war on drugs and assasinate the soldiers involved in planning the attack against the warlors in somalia and then say what isn't banned.

Are you actually using as fictitious material as Half-Life as an example? My god, your grip on reality is pretty loose.

Are there even such games about China? Most games are just as fictitious as halflife. Besides that you only assume they would get banned, which i doubt. Just look at movies or documentaries, theres plenty critisizing Guantanamo, Iraq, or whatever you can imagine. Theres hundreds of books and shows about 911 conspiracies, they dont need to be banned, people just dont want them. Most of the time ppl dont want to create such nefarious vile in the first place let alone sell it

Anyways, you managed to make the connection between communist Russia, Jack Thompson and China, but apparently dont grasp what this means.

My head would explode if I even started to realise what you are talking about. Are you implying that Soviet Union, Jack Thompson and China are the same?

You said it yourself You cant have forgotten so fast...

It was russians around decade ago, they did the same thing back then

So, be objective on the matter, especially when it comes to games, China just has a Jack Thompson in charge of things.

Anyways, im trying to be objective, but i dont see how Jack Thompson, Islamic dictators and the Soviet Union make Chinas censorship ok. Can you explain it

[Kosmo]

Let me make a game where we rescue prisoners from guantanamo bay, drive American invading forces out of Iraq, defend Columbia against CIA and their war on drugs and assasinate the soldiers involved in planning the attack against the warlors in somalia and then say what isn't banned.

Are you actually using as fictitious material as Half-Life as an example? My god, your grip on reality is pretty loose.

Are there even such games about China? Most games are just as fictitious as halflife. Besides that you only assume they would get banned, which i doubt. Just look at movies or documentaries, theres plenty critisizing Guantanamo, Iraq, or whatever you can imagine. Theres hundreds of books and shows about 911 conspiracies, they dont need to be banned, people just dont want them. Most of the time ppl dont want to create such nefarious vile in the first place let alone sell it

Well, to think of it, it mostly isn't the truth that hurts, but it's the image they create about Chinese, just like they created about Soviet Union back then. But I agree that banning games because "they might threaten the national unity" is just plain retard. But I still stand by what I said, it's not that long shot to get a game banned from USA either, the same goes with the rest of the world.

Anyways, you managed to make the connection between communist Russia, Jack Thompson and China, but apparently dont grasp what this means.

My head would explode if I even started to realise what you are talking about. Are you implying that Soviet Union, Jack Thompson and China are the same?

You said it yourself You cant have forgotten so fast...

Oh, I'm glad that you explained what I ment with what I said to me. Where would I be without you. Gosh, I never thought that I compared SU, Jack and China with each other.

Anyways, im trying to be objective, but i dont see how Jack Thompson, Islamic dictators and the Soviet Union make Chinas censorship ok. Can you explain it

Do they make Chinas censorship ok? Again you just read what I type and twist it to your nefarious needs. Not once I said that it's ok. I said that maybe everything isn't as it seems.

China is banning games because they see them very differently. Have you ever been to Japan for example? They don't piss on the street corner and throw garbage in to the streets, they don't draw graffiti on the trains and they don't badmouth each other, they keep those things in the privacy of their homes. So who the fuck are you to judge why they ban games? Maybe it's just that they might aswell have those games but like you said about those 911 documentaries "they dont need to be banned, people just dont want them."

But it's ok, you are too wrapped to your own world that you think that everyone everywhere are just like you and they think, live and shit like you, look like you and like the same things as you.

So, I'm just here to make sure that you actually ARE objective about it.

[RD]

Do they make Chinas censorship ok? Again you just read what I type and twist it to your nefarious needs. Not once I said that it's ok. I said that maybe everything isn't as it seems.

China is banning games because they see them very differently. Have you ever been to Japan for example? They don't piss on the street corner and throw garbage in to the streets, they don't draw graffiti on the trains and they don't badmouth each other, they keep those things in the privacy of their homes. So who the fuck are you to judge why they ban games? Maybe it's just that they might aswell have those games but like you said about those 911 documentaries "they dont need to be banned, people just dont want them."

But it's ok, you are too wrapped to your own world that you think that everyone everywhere are just like you and they think, live and shit like you, look like you and like the same things as you.

So, I'm just here to make sure that you actually ARE objective about it.

Japan is the absolute opposite of China. You can do anything there, even weirder stuff than in the US. They got sex motels

Anyways, read over Fletch's posts again. Ppl get arrested, the chinese dont like censorship any more than anybody. Theyre not so alien that they dont like freedom or breath plasma.

[Kosmo]

I know alot about Japanese culture and Laon culture, not that much about Chinese culture but I believe they are close to each other, I have learned alot about Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism, the corner stones of Asian cultures, they define the culture even more so than Christianity does in Europe and my friend is studying Indology. So I know little something about Chinese/Asian cultures too.

Just your comment on that Japan is the opposite of China shows how little you know.

And yeah, people don't like to be controlled, nor arrested, but I don't go and assume things just because I don't do something that they don't do something. And culturally viewed, they are pretty alien compared to us. Japan might be little different since Americans basically shoved their culture down their throat at the end of WW2, effects of which can be seen even today.