Paris riot Jihad

[The Postman]

They cant send home ppl that have been born in france, which alot of them are. Why is it so strange for islam to have anything to do with it? These ppl live their life how islam tells em to, their whole social environment consists of muslims, the mosque , their own islamic shops and they grow up between frustrated ppl telling them how much the western world sucks or that they failed the job interview because theyre muslim

PEOPLE. PEOPLE! P.E.O.P.L.E. This is not AOL.

[Lurker]

Blaming this on the immigrants won't solve the problem. You can sit there and complain about how they won't assimilate into your society or adopt your values, but the point of a free and welcoming society is that everyone's point of view is a welcome one, and when someone is being impoverished unfairly perhaps it would be better to address the problems in the policy, as the only problem with the people is that they are poor.

The US loves to blame their economic on cheap labour from Mexico, look at how much that has helped them along. Keep passing the buck, soon enough you'll find yourself in the exact situation with the exact same problem, and if you haven't learned anything this cycle will continue until either someone wakes up, or your society fails totally.

[Steppenwolf]

The problem is not that the people are poor. The problem is that the people think they can be asocial because they are poor. Other groups of emigrants dont show this behaviour although they are poor too. I never heard of a chinese who lives here assaulting or hitting a german. Greeks dont life in much different circumstances then turks for example. But i have never heard of or seen a greek gang. :roll:

In the former eastern european countrys 90% of the people were poor. crimerate? extremely low. because everybody was integrated in the society, educated and had learned social behaviour at home, in the kindergarten and in the school.

[RD]

Blaming this on the immigrants won't solve the problem. You can sit there and complain about how they won't assimilate into your society or adopt your values, but the point of a free and welcoming society is that everyone's point of view is a welcome one, and when someone is being impoverished unfairly perhaps it would be better to address the problems in the policy, as the only problem with the people is that they are poor.

The US loves to blame their economic on cheap labour from Mexico, look at how much that has helped them along. Keep passing the buck, soon enough you'll find yourself in the exact situation with the exact same problem, and if you haven't learned anything this cycle will continue until either someone wakes up, or your society fails totally.

What do you know about how we treat foreigners here? We fund their schools, they have social security, they get the same diplomas as me , they arent poor and certainly not discriminated. Still the same problems as in france, and they call us racist what can you do against it? Their parents are fine, they behave but the youth is horrible, like they were raised by apes in a jungle. They dont want to integrate, they want us to adapt to their way of life, want more mosques, more islamic schools, easy jobs and marry someone back in Morocco so the entire family can move to Holland. It has nothing to do with poverty, its just for fun. If we have a problem with it, were racist

[Lurker]

The problem is not that the people are poor. The problem is that the people think they can be asocial because they are poor. Other groups of emigrants dont show this behaviour although they are poor too. I never heard of a chinese who lives here assaulting or hitting a german. Greeks dont life in much different circumstances then turks for example. But i have never heard of or seen a greek gang. :roll:

In the former eastern european countrys 90% of the people were poor. crimerate? extremely low. because everybody was integrated in the society, educated and had learned social behaviour at home, in the kindergarten and in the school.

You make some of the most gross and false generalizations I have ever encountered. Before you go on another racially charged tirade, you might want to stop and think of the distinct possibility that their failure to assimilate might not be their fault.

[Lurker]

They dont want to integrate, they want us to adapt to their way of life, want more mosques, more islamic schools, easy jobs and marry someone back in Morocco so the entire family can move to Holland.

Do they not have the right to do these things? If they work the jobs and pay the taxes, what gives you the right to limit their religious practices and places of education? Why are Catholic schools allowed in some places, when Islamic schools are not? Why are church developments supported, while Mosques shunned?

Integrating into a society and assimilating one into another are completely different things. What you are demanding is that they leave behind their religion, traditions and beliefs to adopt yours.

Good luck with that. A society that fails to change is destined to fail.

P.S: I am in no way endorsing the violent actions of these youth, but the underlying issues remain.

[RD]

You make some of the most gross and false generalizations I have ever encountered. Before you go on another racially charged tirade, you might want to stop and think of the distinct possibility that their failure to assimilate might not be their fault.

Have you considered the possibility that it might be their fault? Why is it so completely impossible that it could be their problem?

[Lurker]

You make some of the most gross and false generalizations I have ever encountered. Before you go on another racially charged tirade, you might want to stop and think of the distinct possibility that their failure to assimilate might not be their fault.

Have you considered the possibility that it might be their fault? Why is it so completely impossible that it could be their problem?

Because practice and reality are two completely separate things. I realize that one side is never right 100% of the time and that one side is never wrong 100% of the time, as you are incinuating "immigrants" as being. I never said it was impossible that it was their problem, what I said was that there is a possibility that it might not be their problem. Context is extremely important, especially in online debates.

The bottom line to this situation is that in reality, it is much too complex an issue to blame solely on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate.

[Steppenwolf]

Its funny that you said i generalize when in fact i made differences between groups of immigrants. Why can 99% immigrants from the one country behave like normal people while the half of a different country can't? This is for sure not my fault or problem. It must have to do with their culture and education.

I dont say that my culture is better or worse then theirs. It may work for them in the countrys they are come from. But over here it just doesnt work and they annoy us with that. All the crime and aggresion on the streets make me sick.

As a guest you have to follow the rules of the house you life in or you will be kicked. On a smale scale everybody understands this. But why not on a large scale? It doesnt make sense for me.

[ginsengavenger]

As a guest you have to follow the rules of the house you life in or you will be kicked. On a smale scale everybody understands this. But why not on a large scale?

Because once they represent a significant percentage of the population they help define the rules of the house. If people feel underrepresented they will make themselves heard - understood, violence is the absolute last resort but these people seem to be pretty frustrated. I'm not very sympathetic but I can at least understand where they're coming from.

The bottom line to this situation is that in reality, it is much too complex an issue to blame solely on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate.

From what I've read (and that's all I can do, is read reports on google news because I don't live there) and infer, the situation pretty much *can* be blamed on immigration into a society and the immigrants' failure to assimilate. Going down the line you need to find cause for that immigration to begin with and secondly that failure to assimilate and I think that is more the root of the argument.

Also I don't think any of us have degrees in sociology.

[Steppenwolf]

This night burnt the first cars in in two german citys. Thats so fucked up. Germany is a rich country. They get free education, healthcare, social safety like everybody in this country who has not enough money. The reason why they are frustrated is that they life in selfmade ghettos. I mean the youth is in the third generation now in germany. They could be integrated already without a problem if they and their parents didnt decided to life like in little Istanbul. They should blame their parents and not the society they life in or the government :roll:

Sorry but i dont have understanding for these people. In my town life many chinese and vietnamese people. Their culture is very different too. But how come that it is barely noticable that they life under us and when you see them or go to their shops they are always friendly und obliging.

[Kosmo]

Is it possible to take that very stupid remark "Jihad" from the forum topic off, it hurts my brain and makes me 10 points less intelligent everytime I see it.

But I agree with Steppie, most other cultures don't have that kind of "easy outbursts," my friend once accidentally hit some foreigners car and the man just jumped him instantly and started to accuse his family and all Finnish for being stupid and all that, shouting some crap about Christianity and all that. It was an isolated incident but I just get the picture from all the current happenings that many foreigners are not wrapped so tight.

Ofcourse I would be pissed too if things like that happened here like they go down in Paris, but I am way too educated and smart not to jump in easy conclusions that the goverment and every not like me is the reason for everything that has gone down.

[RD]

Do they not have the right to do these things? If they work the jobs and pay the taxes, what gives you the right to limit their religious practices and places of education? Why are Catholic schools allowed in some places, when Islamic schools are not? Why are church developments supported, while Mosques shunned?

What you are demanding is that they leave behind their religion, traditions and beliefs to adopt yours.

Good luck with that. A society that fails to change is destined to fail.

P.S: I am in no way endorsing the violent actions of these youth, but the underlying issues remain.

How about reading what i actually write. I am talking about Holland here. They dont have to abandon their religion, we fund their schools and mosques (how many times i gotta say it?) there is barely racism towards them, except a few days last year when an islamist shot and beheaded a famous dutchy. Its more the other way around. Most of em are fine, but there really is a group of immigrant teenagers which assault us for fun trying to cause riots, no matter how complex you want to believe it is. They have no demands, they dont want things to change and dont want contact with us. They arent restricted, not religiously or culturally. They have the right to build schools and mosques, which we let them do like rabbits for years.

But apparently this approach doesnt work, society is changing now, they dont like it. Dealing with the problems isnt racism, its the law. They dont have the right not to integrate, which is what we let them do. When a gang of moroccans assault police, we cant even use the word moroccan, but have to use North African, or they have another reason to riot

[Lurker]

Want to argue? Get some insight.

If France's population of immigrant origin -- mostly Arab, some black -- is today quite large (more than 10% of the total population), it is because there was a government and industrial policy during the post-World War II boom years of reconstruction and economic expansion which the French call "les trentes glorieuses" -- the 30 glorious years -- to recruit from France's foreign colonies laborers and factory and menial workers for jobs which there were no Frenchmen to fill. These immigrant workers were desperately needed to allow the French economy to expand due to the shortage of male manpower caused by two World Wars, which killed many Frenchmen, and slashed the native French birth-rates too. Moreover, these immigrant workers were considered passive and unlikely to strike (unlike the highly political French working class and its Communist-led unions.) This government-and-industry-sponsored influx of Arab workers (many of whom saved up to bring their families to France from North Africa) was reinforced following Algerian independence by the Harkis.

The Harkis (whose story is movingly told by Dalila Kerchouche in her Destins de Harkis) were the native Algerians who fought for and worked with France during the post-war anti-colonial struggles for independence -- and who for their trouble were horribly treated by France. Some 100,000 Harkis were killed by the Algerian FLN (National Liberation Front) after the French shamelessly abandoned them to a lethal fate when the French occupying army evacuated itself and the French colonists from Algeria. Moreover, those Harki families who were saved, often at the initiative of individual military commanders who refused to obey orders not to evacuate them, once in France were parked in unspeakable, filthy, crowded concentration camps for many long years and never benefited from any government aid -- a nice reward for their sacrifices for France, of which they were, after all, legally citizens. Their ghettoized children and grandchildren, naturally, harbor certain resentments.

"What hope does a young person have who's been born in a quartier without a soul, who lives in an unspeakably ugly high-rise, surrounded by more ugliness, imprisoned by gray walls in a gray wasteland and condemned to a gray life, with all around a society that prefers to look away until it's time to get mad, time to FORBID."

Thanks.

[Fletch]

The real irony in all of this is that violence and rioting has one of the smallest success rates in instituting lasting change. With the first confirmed death, France's government is going to be stepping up in a big way to stop riots. I would not be surprised to see a "shoot to wound" order within the next few days, followed quickly my numerou reports of rioters getting shot. That's going to end of a lot of riots dead in their tracks. The neighborhoods where these things are popping up from are going to get some major security crackdowns as this thing dies off. It's going to be the exact opposite of what the original rioters wanted in the first place.

Now, am I saying any of that is the "right" solution? Not really. But then again, neither was rioting to begin with. This is just one of those things where both sides lose and the social fabric becomes even more split.