Dumb Design vs Intelligent design

[Kosmo]

and all that happened in one hundred year span

you only have antibiotics and globalization to thank for that

But still, we didn't forcibly alter our genetic makeup (not saying that antibiotics are in out genes, but the immunity to certain diseases are), the antibiotics made it for us, and all medicines we take either kills the disease OR mutates it to a new one, which is evolution, simple and all.

[ginsengavenger]

what is your point?

[Kosmo]

My point is that evolution is something that just doesn't "happen" there are millions of variables to take in consideration, and I think, most of those who believe in ID think that evolution is some magic that just happens without any outside interfearence, like geological anomalities where some big bad predator can get in to a place where the original fauna has never been threatened and so on.

And it seems like they don't count that evolution is even happening this day and age, we can't consider it NOT to be evolution that the medicines that we produce, have certain effects to our physiology, even if it is from man made drug, the genetic effects that occur maybe few hundred years down the line in some generation is actually evolution.

[ginsengavenger]

so you're trying to reconcile natural selection with the "unnatural" selection that we as sentient human beings are imposing upon ourselves and our environment?

[mawibse]

It was the action of millions upon millions of generations of self replicating amino acids and RNA before mutation and good old evolution found another way to do things that just happened to allow "better" reproduction.

Isn’t it strange how those millions upon millions of generations of self-replicating amino acids and RNA’s are just not to be found anywhere anymore, did they all die?

I mean one would think that they need to be pretty common and robust to survive for millions of generations not to mention that they also need to spontaneously appear, or get evolved if you wish, from something?

Why is the speculation of never observed ancestors to DNA more science then ID?

Source of information concerning RNA and such:

http://www.scripps.edu/mb/joyce/publications.html

It's beyond me how people can just think that "some outside force must have created life since it is so complicated.

They don’t think the existence is millions upon millions years old, but let’s not get into that since no one here makes such an unfounded claim.

I also like to address what Darwin somewhat originated, Evolution in itself seems pretty clever no matter where it started

[Kosmo]

It was just one example. If you want another example that doesn't involve humans doing things on their own, then take the meteorite that supposedly killed dinosaurs for an example, where is the natural selection there? Or do you consider a meteorite as the ultimate predator.

What I said, was just an example of how things evolve, and the "ID must be true because DNA/Eye/'your favourite complex thing here' is so complicated that it couldn't have just happened, there must have been some higher power guiding the so called evolution".

Evolution doesn't necessary happen on it's own, after dinosaurs vanished as a quirk of universe, humans became the next-gen (if you will) and it had absolutely nothing to do with natural selection. It would go closer to chaos theory of everything is just a random act, but even then, it doesn't over rule evolution, it's just a theory that acts with evolution, not against it, but still it changed a big part of it ot seem like some higher power would have had something to do with it, just like with DNA and such.

[RD]

Once again the thread is filled with ppl who know only the most narrow and religious take on ID.

If life can be intelligent, why is it impossible for it to have control over its own or others design?

So all who even remotely believe to Intelligent Design, cry to a pillow when you sleep, but keep it out of the facts

The only reason you can count evolution as a fact is because someone found it worthy enough to investigate. Its like ur calling evrybody that believed in evolution before the theory was tested dumb. Intelligent design is worth investigating, even if you have a personal problem with the results

[Kosmo]

If life can be intelligent, why is it impossible for it to have control over its own or others design?

If you are referring to things like, humans breeding horses and dogs, then I'd have to agree, some life forms have more control over others, but if you breed an intelligent race, like example, if aliens breeded humans, then there is bound to be some evidence lying around.

The only reason you can count evolution as a fact is because someone found it worthy enough to investigate. Its like ur calling evrybody that believed in evolution before the theory was tested dumb. Intelligent design is worth investigating, even if you have a personal problem with the results

Nope, it was because evolution was not invented by a crackpot religious wacko trying to convert more people to "the flock", there is not a single meritable scientist investigating on Intelligent Design.

And I'm not saying that it shouldn't be investigated, just don't come to teach it as "fact" to my children before you have gone through some investigation, a theory mere few decades old can hardly be called theory at all.

And I have nothing against the results, if they find that mankind is the spawn of some superior alien race it would only be good for mankind, unless ofcourse they breeded us to be food or something nasty like that.

If they made a breakthrough that man was actually some weird lab test done by some aliens maybe then we'd get rid of these religious crackpots and scammers.

[GrayFox]

Listen to Kosmo, ppl. He has some good points here.

[ginsengavenger]

RD, how can we "investigate" ID? At this point it has to remain faith-based. I mean, we have SETI and such, there is some effort to look for extraterrestrials. Sure they could use more money but what else can we do?

Kosmo I'm still pretty unclear what you're trying to get across.

Evolution doesn't necessary happen on it's own, after dinosaurs vanished as a quirk of universe, humans became the next-gen (if you will) and it had absolutely nothing to do with natural selection.

OF COURSE it did. The dinosaur extinction is one of the great demonstrations of natural selection.

There was a massive catastrophe that utterly changed the global climate. These things happen. Huge lumbering dinosaurs were unsuited to the new, devastated climate and ecology. Small warm-blooded mammals were better suited and so they survived, reproduced, and eventually the planet got better. Millions of years later humans evolved.

a theory mere few decades old can hardly be called theory at all.

heheh get a little perspective. Evolution is only like 150 years old. People have known about Creation for thousands of years ^^

here, have a chuckle: http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27604

[Kosmo]

Kosmo I'm still pretty unclear what you're trying to get across.

Well, tell me what is it what I said is so unclear and I will unravel it's mysteries to you, altho, holistic medicine and intelligent design, most part philosophical, doesn't need any gifts or such to be clear, they are mere observations, don't you think?

RD, how can we "investigate" ID? At this point it has to remain faith-based. I mean, we have SETI and such, there is some effort to look for extraterrestrials. Sure they could use more money but what else can we do?

Kosmo I'm still pretty unclear what you're trying to get across.

a theory mere few decades old can hardly be called theory at all.

heheh get a little perspective. Evolution is only like 150 years old. People have known about Creation for thousands of years ^^

Little perspective? So you are saying that things that happened millions of years ago are earlier than the bible? Or are you implying that this part was in the bible: "Hear me speak the words of god, the great intelligent designer, thy theory ofcourse mind you, but I THINK that god or some sentient being came here and made man and a woman, forgot to tell us about the dinosaurs, and then he rested on the sevent day, what a jolly good fellow he was", take my word, they didn't think it as a "theory" back then

And while I speak about ID, I don't refer only to Genesis, I refer to all the cooky creationism theories where some god or what ever, legomen, transformers and captain kirk created man as their image and so on and so on.

Modern ID theory isn't that old, and while it borrows alot of things from the modern evolution theory, you know, the one that is less than the 150 years old, my guess is that ID actually is maximum of 40 years old, what people say it is based on is beyond me, they could say that it is older than the humankind, the word itself comes straight from Santa, brought to us by Easter bunny and Carebears.

[ginsengavenger]

Sorry, your posts are just difficult for me to follow, kind of train-of thought stuff. Don't worry too much

Let's be clear here. Intelligent Design is half-assed pseudoscience dreamed up by Creationists. It only asks questions and provides no answers. Its ONLY use is to drive a wedge into the public education system. Their goal is to get people teaching Creationism in schools. This is flatly absurd and cannot be allowed.

[Izuno]

Seems to me that "Intelligent Design" is a term that was applied to creationism in the last couple of years to make it sound more marketable to the scientific community.

Further, it seems like the sudden use of "Intelligent Design" rather than "Creationism" implies, IMHO, that someone in the creationism camp hired a marketing consultant to find a better way to get their message out.

Obviously I am speculating wildly, but that's just the flavor of this whole debate that I'm getting that there is such zeal/furvor behind creationism on some people's parts that they will go to great lenghts to convert, er convince, you.

I dunno...not sure what I'm trying to say except the arguements and methods of arguing used by ID proponents gives me this feeling like they are trying to convert me or sell me or shill me or just something that says underneath it all they don't give a shit about my personal opinion as long as I adopt their view.

I get the same feeling when I hear much of the furvor coming from people arguing the 'pro-life' side of the abortion debate.

Anyway, I have digressed off topic.

[RD]

Im just taking the broadest definition of the theory intelligent design, and not the one hijacked by religions. Intelligent design simply means intelligent design, with no conclusion on what designed what and how.

I guess we were all talking about diffrent things then. I should have clicked the link to see it was about adam being planted on earth 5000 years ago

[Kosmo]

Sorry, your posts are just difficult for me to follow, kind of train-of thought stuff. Don't worry too much

Don't worry about it, I'm even cryptic to myself.