Looking for Looters ?

[Lurker]

I hope when we're all totally fucked over by a natural disaster that claims members of our families and friends, we can all think as level headed as ferrett.

You're an example to us all.

How does losing loved ones warrant stealing materialistic items for one's personal benefit. I dont see any reason to forgive those who steal, they should be treated as criminals as they are, criminals. My shooting anyone who is stealing was mildly sarcastic, but anyone caught should definately be arrested. There is no excuse for it.

While I agree with you to a point, I think its important to understand the context of the situation. These people lost their homes, likely lost loved ones, lost their jobs when they were likely in poverty already. These people went through a Hell on earth, desparate times. Probably not the best time to be judging their overall mental wellbeing.

[jfas]

Hello everyone, first off id like to say, im back online! Got myself a new monitor, computer, and internet!!!

Anyway, my girlfriend's name is Alexandra and she was directly hit by the hurricane, she lived on a beach front home in Ocean Springs, Mississippi, which is just across from Biloxi. All of her family survived the hurricane, but her home, her possessions, her friends and relatives homes and possessions, were either destroyed, carried away or ruined. There are signs that read "If you loot, We shoot" and she and the majority of everyone down there it seems support that. There is a huge difference between looking for your own misplaced property, scrounging for food, and looting. When people take advantage of a disaster like this by looting from other people its disgusting. People have to find their missings things in debri, mud or the sand and these people are finding the very last possessions they have. People were left with nothing, and then looters come and will try and take that from them, the very last of what people have. Looters do not diserve sympathy. So ya, maybe that plasma tv that someone took is all fun and games because its from a big corporation like walmart....whatever, you guys are defending these looters. Im talking about whats really happening, many people lost everything they own and other people try to steal the very little that survived, and they should be shot.

Also, she brings up a good point in that they dont claim to murder anyone and everything, thats not true, theyre just gonna shoot you, and the majority of people who have "You loot, We Shoot" signs dont have guns, people are scared and they want to feel secure in the chaos down there

[DaanO]

I honestly think no situation ever justifies killing someone, unless it's self-defence

[Kosmo]

Dawn of times, man invented fire, fire was good, brought protection and warmth. Then he invented wheel, wheel brought many inventions that are still in heavy use today. But it seems that man never invented catching a thief so instead they decided to kill the people.

[von*ferret]

If signs are what it takes to discourage people from taking advantage of a disaster than I fully support "you loot, we shoot." I dont see how you guys can justify stealing. Stealing is stealing whether they're in a disaster zone or not. I would not want people making excuses for me if I was the one choosing to steal.

Johnathan good to see you're back online, i'll be back in sav on the 13th if I dont get held up in the new hurrican orphelia or what ever.

[Minos]

I hope when we're all totally fucked over by a natural disaster that claims members of our families and friends, we can all think as level headed as ferrett.

You're an example to us all.

How does losing loved ones warrant stealing materialistic items for one's personal benefit. I dont see any reason to forgive those who steal, they should be treated as criminals as they are, criminals. My shooting anyone who is stealing was mildly sarcastic, but anyone caught should definately be arrested. There is no excuse for it.

Ok, it's easier to talk like that when you have all you want. Poor people grow up hearing stuff like "get rich or die tryin'", you need this, you have to buy this, you have to have that but hey, they can't afford such things. It's neither your fault nor theirs.

When shit like that happens and there's no one to control their instincts they will do bad things. I'm not defending the looters but it's a cultural thing imo. America means capitalism that means consumerism that means material stuff > people's lives. Yeah I blame society for such things. If we cared less about material stuff and paid more attention to the people who surround us this world would be a lot better.

While people were discussing the existence of the Matrix back in 2003 their 'brothers' were going to Iraq just to die for a stupid neo-imperialistic war. Yeah, people care more about the existence (or not) of the matrix than to the death of those people. That wont ever change imo, we have gone too far already.

[Kosmo]

minos is the truth, more so than god

I don't think that necessary those people who are looting, actually realize that what they are doing is wrong, just like when you are downloading a game or a movie from internet, do you get sleepless nights over it? I doubt it, but do you want to get shot because of it? There are some studio excecs really pissed because they lost potential viewers and millions of dollars because of a guy in the theater with a videocamera, and my guess is that they propably want to shoot the guy.

I know stealing is stealing no matter what you think justifies it, but then again, murder is murder, even if your country told you to do so in some foreign war OR if you think you are doing the right thing shooting some looters.

I agree totally with Minos that the country and culture has made people obsessed with material goods, you didn't see this kind of behavior when the freak tsunami destroyed prettymuch everything, sure there were some looters, but either it was not as much reported in news, or it was not nearly as widespread as it is in New Orleans, and believe me, those people are literally poor, not that BS poor "I can't afford two luxyry class cars and a plasma tv" those people are poor like "I don't have ANY money, I can't get even the basic education if I don't collect recyclable plastic about 5kg so I can scrounge few pennies to go to school tomorrow, and then I don't have anything to eat else than carbage."

Every capitalistic imperium through the history has been viewed as the oracle of wealth but only to be eaten from inside by it's own greedy people, countries that actually take care of it's citizens like Canada, or any country in scandinavia or prettymuch every european country don't have this kind of problem. There have been pretty big disasters here too, and we don't have that kind of problem, and why do you think that is?

[Izuno]

minos is the truth, more so than god

I don't think that necessary those people who are looting, actually realize that what they are doing is wrong, just like when you are downloading a game or a movie from internet, do you get sleepless nights over it? I doubt it, but do you want to get shot because of it? There are some studio excecs really pissed because they lost potential viewers and millions of dollars because of a guy in the theater with a videocamera, and my guess is that they propably want to shoot the guy.

I know stealing is stealing no matter what you think justifies it, but then again, murder is murder, even if your country told you to do so in some foreign war OR if you think you are doing the right thing shooting some looters.

I agree totally with Minos that the country and culture has made people obsessed with material goods, you didn't see this kind of behavior when the freak tsunami destroyed prettymuch everything, sure there were some looters, but either it was not as much reported in news, or it was not nearly as widespread as it is in New Orleans, and believe me, those people are literally poor, not that BS poor "I can't afford two luxyry class cars and a plasma tv" those people are poor like "I don't have ANY money, I can't get even the basic education if I don't collect recyclable plastic about 5kg so I can scrounge few pennies to go to school tomorrow, and then I don't have anything to eat else than carbage."

Every capitalistic imperium through the history has been viewed as the oracle of wealth but only to be eaten from inside by it's own greedy people, countries that actually take care of it's citizens like Canada, or any country in scandinavia or prettymuch every european country don't have this kind of problem. There have been pretty big disasters here too, and we don't have that kind of problem, and why do you think that is?

excellent points. to answer that, here are some observations about American capitalism...

1) ... yes I agree it is wealth obsessed, at least in the media at is and for most americans we probably encounter it all the time, especially if you watch a lot of TV, use the internet a fair amount, go to school, live in a big city etc. So that covers many, many americans. This wealth obsession (or at least wealth orientation) might set up this mindset of "I gotta have it all". So why is that?

2) ...there is a strong general perception of the American Dream. You gotta have a big house, nice car, nice stuff, hot wife....it's all about what you have, not so much about who you are and what you stand for. Our culture tends to measure material posessions as an indicator of success and value, rather than content of character and contribution to society. How did that happen? Why is that? You tell me man, I only work here. (I freely admit I am guilty of it, too.)

3) ...There are two competing forces in any capitalist, communist, socialist or fascist societies: (1) doing what is good for you (2) doing what is good for society. Sure, all 4 systems operate in very different ways and have different definitions of good and bad and different ideologies, mechanisms, etc. But all share the same burden of determining who gets what and how. Capitalists rely on a free market that is somewhat regulated and heavily abused. Socialists simply regulate it a hellofa lot more. Communists (actually communist) usually rely on military totalitarianism to make their system work (as disfunctional as it may be on basic levels like food distribution). Fascists simply tell you how to operater or immediately shoot you in the head, throw you in a bottomless pit or otherwise etc but regardless, they very strictly declare who gets what and enslave or murder the rest. ........So in capitalism, we try to be "lazze faire" and let the free market "work everything out for us". Good times...because as a result we get things like the Savings and Loan crisis of the 80s. Or the Anderson Consluting/Accenture accounting fiasco of the 1990s (and other big accounting firms). Or Enron. Worldcom. Adelphia. Oh yeah, on the other end we get looting in natural disasters. We get horrible drug problems in inner cities...and rich suburbs....

Anyway...my point is this: It seems like anywhere we have relatively unregulated free markets, people abuse them. They abused them many many years ago with widespread slavery and direct Imperialism. Africa and North American come to mind. Or Chief Financial Officers of modern corperations take advantage of loopholes and gaps in regulations to make their companies look better to investors and less profitable to the IRS, meanwhile they find ways to embessle funds or abuse corporate assets like jets and spending accounts for personal use. Or car salesmen give different prices to women and minorities then they would to white men. Or cable companies keep raising rates due to geographic monopolies. These things just seem to be the price of capitalism...

Ok, I have more to say about this (a lot more) but perhaps this is a whole other discussion thread and I'm taking things off topic too far. (plus i gotta go to work so I can't really finish this now) Don't get me wrong, I love this country (USA) and I do like capitalism, I'm just wondering if there is any way to have less abuses, a little more fairness, all the while not ruining the free market. Again, maybe I'm a dreamer but to me it is a worthy discussion....

[Kosmo]

Nice post Izuno, fit for a book about politics.

The only thing bad (and this is a big bad) I see with capitalism when compared to socialism (not going to compare capitalism with communism, that compare would be fair if imperialism and communism was compared), capitalism like fascism is created by few, the same pattern can be seen through the political ideologies when moving from leftwing to right.

Everyone benefits from socialism, instead of the very few and select elite that are the ones that benefit from capitalism, there is opression of the poor and middle class, not like in socialism, but usually man is greedy and selfish, so that wrecks the whole idea of socialism, the thing works like a charm in paper, but when you have to actually run a socialistic society it just crumbles.

Capitalism instead works fairly well because it is a straight political conversion of human greed and obsessions, but even it won't last if we take is step higher to Imperialism where majority of people are opressed, not just the unfortunate, power is transferred to very select few of about 1% and the country usually rules over other countries managing "peace" through armed forces just like communists do.

I don't like the whole idea of placing the power to a select few, because it gives the chance of retarded warmongers like Bush to come to power and abuse the hell out of it, in Finland, if our president wanted to attack some other country, we'd give her a gun and say "you are very welcome to try, when you come back, do tell how it went", because that is how actual democracy works.

And that is the way I like things, fair opportunity to everyone to success, education and work/social security for everyone, no one is left behind (this is ofcourse on paper, we DO have hundreds of homeless people too unfortunately).

Tell me Izuno, did you study? How much did it cost? What have had happened if you didn't have money to go to shcool? The uncertainty is what I hate, and capitalistic world is full of it.

[jfas]

Jonathan good to see you're back online, i'll be back in sav on the 13th if I dont get held up in the new hurrican orphelia or what ever.

i would not worry about ophelia, its so far east in the atlantic that i dont think its effecting savannah at all, except maybe its keeping the rain away because the wind has been keeping it pretty sunny lately

[Lurker]

If signs are what it takes to discourage people from taking advantage of a disaster than I fully support "you loot, we shoot." I dont see how you guys can justify stealing. Stealing is stealing whether they're in a disaster zone or not. I would not want people making excuses for me if I was the one choosing to steal.

Johnathan good to see you're back online, i'll be back in sav on the 13th if I dont get held up in the new hurrican orphelia or what ever.

Stab in the dark here, but by any chance do you disagree with rape victims getting abortions?

[Izuno]

Tell me Izuno, did you study? How much did it cost? What have had happened if you didn't have money to go to shcool? The uncertainty is what I hate, and capitalistic world is full of it.

Yes I studied....both college and grad school. I don't think they made me smart...just gave me language and contexts on how to view the world, plus filled my brain with many ideas and stuff that I didn't think up on my own.

If signs are what it takes to discourage people from taking advantage of a disaster than I fully support "you loot, we shoot." I dont see how you guys can justify stealing. Stealing is stealing whether they're in a disaster zone or not. I would not want people making excuses for me if I was the one choosing to steal.

yes. stealing is stealing. there is no question about that. i'm not going to debate that particular issue but instead ask a question that may get us thinking differently.

- what if people who were looting/stealing found a way to put up signs for the TV cameras and onlookers to read that read the following whilte they were looting/stealing:

Hello. We lost everything in the hurricane. We have no food, no drinking water, no stable shelter,no sanitation facilities, nothing but the clothes on our backs. We do not want to break into dormant stores and steal food, but we have yet to receive any aid from anyone. If we don't get food, we will starve and possibly die. We don't want to starve. So we are choosing to break into these stores and take food. Please send help. We are very sorry but we don't know what else to do? Do you have any suggestions? Should we just roll over and die? Again, please help us. We would really appreciate it.

a few points about that:

1) I don't think anyone had signs like that...at least I never saw any on the news.

2) I did recall seeing "HELP" written on rooftops etc, but that was it.

3) I agree that stealing car stereos and boomboxes is bullshit. But what about clothing? Diapers? Clearly some gray area exists if you believe stealing/looting for survival is justified in dire circumstances. What justifies "dire"?

Food for thought.

[von*ferret]

3) I agree that stealing car stereos and boomboxes is bullshit. But what about clothing? Diapers? Clearly some gray area exists if you believe stealing/looting for survival is justified in dire circumstances. What justifies "dire"?

That is the thing I can justify, because they're doing so to survive the disaster. I'm more furious over the people who have the energy and enough food in their stomachs to go steal tonka truck cars for infants out of toy-r-us and the fact that every jewlery store in the flooded areas were completely ransacked. I was brought up that if you're poor that you fight for an education and work hard to bring up your family. My mom worked her way up from an extreme poverty only earning 5k a year, funded her way through college, became a teacher for children who are unable to fit into society (special education) and now directs the 6 major counties of Oregon on early intervention programs. She is a prime example of how even poor people can 1.) get an education through working full time and school along with scholarships 2.) do something you love and 3.) be a good benefit to society

I'm not going to say she doesn't make a lot of money, because she does. The point though is that she worked her way up and now she has a comfortable living. Anyone can do it with enough drive. However I've lived in the south for 2 years now and am face to face with the southern "drive." In general I find that poor african american youth care more about getting a car with loud bass and going to the clubs to shoot each other at 3 am after the clubs let out. Johnathan can back me up here that its the sad truth about where I am. If they just had a reality check to tell them "look there are plenty of opportunities out there and you dont have to take this route" and if they took that SERIOUSLY than they wouldn't be poverty stricken. People need to take account for themselves and realize that the capitalist country we live in does not force you to have an education past grade 12 (or the age 18) and does not force you to have ambition. These are qualities you must garner yourself if you want to be successful. I personaly want to be successful and raise a family. Being rich would be nice, but I'd rather live comfortably and provide for a loving family than have a hand ful of cars and a hundred suits. That again is something that my parents instilled in me and something I grew into as I grew up. Sadly though the poverty stricken areas of the US dont have solid families to learn these lessons through, rather they have MTV to teach them lessons in pop culture and everything that is wrong and lazy about the US.

My brother and I were discussing the US yesterday and we came to the conclusion that we're no longer the super power in the world, if we are still than its for a limited time. Where were the days when we'd walk up to something and say "I'm going to build a big ass dam here that is majestic" and not care about the money or how long, rather that it would be an achievement (just want to say I dont agree with daming of rivers cause they kill my beloved chinook salmon). Look at the highway system and rail road system. We simply just BUILT these massive projects that were a testament to our society. Today we'd rather create the next "survivor" show in guatemala than create. Where as in other countries they're building the largest tower, biggest bridge, ect. Our countrie's laziness and lack of caring to garner our own education will be the death and fall of the "sleeping giant" we once were. We have spirit when we need it, but people every day forget the blessings our country had and take it for granted. Its a very sad thing.

[ginsengavenger]

For once I agree with you in that last sentiment ferret - complacency and misdirected effort will be the end of us. I believe our decline will be rooted in our abysmally undersupported public education system. Compound that with the young poor dropping out of school to take jobs to support their families and it becomes very difficult to work one's way out of poverty.

[von*ferret]

Last time I checked we put a lot MORE money into schools under the no child left behind act, however people still feel is under funded. I work in the school district at home and I see first hand how they spend their money. Its abysmal. The federal government can give you all the money you want, but mismanaging it and wasting it on plentiful-crap is going to incur. You have to give strigent guidelines and get people who know wtf they're doing to manage a system like that. Oregon found if I remember 360 MILLION dollars some how of mismanaged money sitting dormant in some account. How the HELL do you do that? Also, feeding million after million wont make people WANT to learn. That needs to come from the parents and the teachers. Its not the job of the government to force learning upon people. Its up to the parents to teach their children properly so they WANT to suceed. What I see though is lazy parents who really shouldn't be parents and have hoodlems growing in their homes, and parents who would rather have their children work for them as cheaper labor. Both instances are embarrassing, though the 2nd one is more cultural since in older times the more children you had to work for you, the richer you could become. (i'm thinking india here).