[CSGO] de_fumble - Looking for feedback on my WIP map!

[HippoEntity]

Been working on my first defuse map for a month or two. It's set in a surreal modern art gallery and is still quite unfinished. 

I want to make it viable for 5v5 competitive but I'm pretty new to CSGO mapping, so any criticism / feedback is much appreciated! The detailing etc is still pretty basic and blocky as I'm not using any custom assets, I'm mostly focused on the layout (which has evolved over the course of a decent amount of playtesting).

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2958136557

I've attached a screenshot of the radar.

Cheers!

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by HippoEntity
Cleaned up images

[Freaky_Banana]

Hey, I had a run around your map. Here is some impressions:

• Confusion. Firstly, where the hell am I? And secondly where are the gameplay spaces? Especially on the bombsites I couldn't tell at all what positions I'm supposed to check and in which order when entering as a Terrorist. I think this is mainly to do with the...
• Impractical Geometry. The layout uses lots of long straight and narrow corridors (obstructed by a frustrating amount of arbitrary items and height variation which turn nice straight lines into parkour). CSGO levels are generally built in a way that uses the world geometry (e.g. walls) to create natural cover and angles to play. In your map it seems like you tried to use exclusively props for this purpose. Also the scale of most areas seems unnatural. 
• Expanding on the previous point, the entire map is very narrow. Players like space to play with, at least in important areas where fights are expected to happen. It's no fun getting mowed down by a  NEGEV just because the hallway is too narrow to avoid it. 
• Bombsite B felt much better than bombsite A, but the underground area has very unnatural proportions and weird approach angles. 
• Bombsite A is extremely chaotic. Anywhere I stand I can be shot from at least two different angles, usually even three or more. I would check Overpass' A Side of the map to see how large open spaces can be broken down into manageable individual areas and fights that make for fun confrontations. 

I would strongly suggest you reconsider the way you partition your map. Instead of having pathes in between the bombsites, think about the different areas that you want to include and how these can be strung together. When connecting these areas it is also important to think about the flow of gameplay. By this I mean when will there be fighting where and how can I make the approaches to (=the angles in...) these battles feel good for both sides?

To achieve this personally I would scrap and redo the entire A side. I think you can keep B more or less for a first iteration, but there will definitely be some rescaling that wants doing. To summarize, the map has its cool moments (I like the butterfly room a lot for its dreamy vibe!) but in its current state seems in no way fit for competitive. 

[HippoEntity]

Hey man! Thanks so much for taking the time to check out the map and type out a detailed, helpful critique. I really appreciate it. Apologies for the slow response.

I agree with a lot of your points and I'll definitely take them on board as I keep iterating. You're right about Bombsite A, I think. Back to the drawing board with that one.

I had a few questions though, especially with your 'Impractical Geometry' critiques. Definitely agree with your point about lots of long narrow corridors, but I was wondering what exactly you mean by:

Quote

obstructed by a frustrating amount of arbitrary items and height variation which turn nice straight lines into parkour

Is this mainly referring to bombsite A, or is it an overall issue with the way height variation and props are used in the map? Generally, I've tried to use those elements to block OP sightlines and to add variations to the layout. (For instance, I felt like the pillars in mid and long route through the construction area to A were working for these purposes.) Is it possible you could give some examples of where you had issues with this stuff? 

The other question I had was with this section:

Quote

Instead of having pathes in between the bombsites, think about the different areas that you want to include and how these can be strung together. When connecting these areas it is also important to think about the flow of gameplay.

In terms of contact points, these have been playtested to a standard that I thought was working ok, but I understand your point. I want to make sure I'm interpreting your response correctly- Are you recommending scrapping the design of 'a few snaking corridors leading to each bombsite' (eg. Ancient, Vertigo) in favour of 'a few medium-large sized areas leading to each bombsite with a small amount of snaking corridors providing flank routes' (eg. Dust2 LongA and Mid, Mirage Mid)?

Cheers again for your in-depth feedback, it's very helpful, and no problem if you don't have time to boot the map up again to give specific examples of the stuff I mentioned.

Jo

[Freaky_Banana]

Hey, finally have some time to get back to this:

First off, on looking back my initial message definitely comes off rude which isn't what I meant for. But you really took it well - thanks for that.
Secondly, I collected a few examples of what I was talking about:  https://imgur.com/a/8g3hUk2

Concerning your other question, I was simply trying to suggest widening your pathes. In my personal experience, when I think about a layout in terms of pathes, I build long narrow corridors, because those are the 3D equivalent of the line on the layout. But maybe if you think about the same place in terms of an area, then suddenly a museum usually has large rooms because it wants to give room to the artworks. This way non-descript hallways can turn into real places that are naturally much more interesting and easier to build since you have a mental image of the specific place (this is also one of the main reasons I really like the butterfly room, it just feels like a real place in a surrealist museum).

Building a believable place should also help with the "flow" that I talked about. In your current build especially on A there is several positions where you need to flick your view nearly 90° degrees in order to see the next relevant encounter spot, which puts you at a massive disadvantage in a precision shooter like CSGO and is in my opinion very unfun. But real museums are typically built in a way that "leads" you around an exhibition, providing a natural flow without too many sharp turns (leaving aside staircases). From the entrance of one room you can normally see the next doorway you're supposed to move to. 

I hope that explains what I mean.