Bush "Troubled" by Gay Marriages in SF

[mawibse]

Some indeed.

Without a god there is no free will.

Without a god every deed that we consider evil is just another moral perspective.

Without a god you’re life serve no purpose but what you make up.

Without a soul when you die you’re just a memory that is fading.

Even if I could prove the existence of god to you I wouldn't, because that would deprave you of the choice of faith that is necessary to bring you to god.

[Guest The_Postman]

Without a god you’re life serve no purpose but what you make up.

Your irony wins the thread sir.

[DD]

Only the weak can't bare the thought of a non-existant higher being. You can still live a meaning full, fun, happy life not believeing in a god. Anyways, you keep believeing in fear, I'm happy knowing you're worried about going to hell from about everything you do, and I'm not. HAH!

BTW, I have free will (isn't that what most bibles say too?). I consider good and bad a moral (social) perspective, and it doesn't bother me at all. I'm happy knowing my life is what I make it up to be, and isn't that what religions say, life is what you make it (then you're judged and if you touched yourself you're a bad person and go to hell die and burn forever!)? And if my "soul" which I don't believe in, is just a memory, then why would I care? I would be DEAD!

[Fletch]

I respect people with faith. Of the many self-improvements i've made in life, faith is still the one thing I that seems out of my reach. Props to those who have it. Boo to those that try to force it upon other people.

[mawibse]

DD if you think believing in a god is to live in fear I understand why you patronize those with faith.

All religion is based on free will, without the belief in the existence of something more then the scientifically proved physical world, free will would not exist.

Free will is a belief, just like the belief in a god or a soul.

You can’t and never will scientifically prove its existence.

To beleive in it's existance is creating an illusion to comfort you. And I guess thats what you call being "weak", no?

Your irony wins the thread sir.

Either the common sense of over 95% of earth’s human populations is wrong, and the reason that we know of god is to create a purpose in an existence without.

Or god exists and you’re purpose is to find out if you have the faith in his existence and can control you’re actions to his will.

If god doesn’t exist I don’t see a reason to feel or act according to empathy.

If I kidnap rape and kill little girls and get away with it, what does it matter?

Sure the little girls would suffer terribly and so would their close ones but why should I care? Because my actions don’t increase my species population? Why care about a species amongst thousands of others in an existence without a purpose?

Because it makes you feel angry? Without anyone knowing or ever know who did it why should I care what you feel?

Without a god, and using only cold reasoning, the only true purpose is that all my actions should be to my own amusement, curiosity and benefit, no reason for anything else. No reason at all.

[DD]

You don't need religion to have social and moral laws. I don't go and rape children or kill, but I'm also not relgious! Imagine that! The reason is simple: I'm not psychotic, I know of social laws, plus I simply don't have a natural will to do such things. I'm not religious and I don't perform actions only for my own amusment, I work, do favors for friends, help others, pursue relationships, etc. HOW CAN THIS BE!? I've got a brain.

I never said believeing in god is to live in fear. As I said before, try to read what I say before making me look bad, because that was definetly NOT what I said. I was actually making fun of christian relgions (and the like). Not that being Christian is a bad thing, I believe it helps lots of people be more productive citizens and lead better families.

Free will is a fact, if I want to blow my nose, clean my ass, or take a shit, I do it. It's not an illusion to comfort me. Now if you're saying all actions are pre-ordained, then you're not a good christian as far as I know. As far as I know most christian bibles say you are soley responsible for your own actions, not God. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I remember.

95% of the population? Nice stats, where did you get that from, your under regions? It's my belief that 95% of people, from all time, come from very uneducated roots and beginings. Great minds don't think alike, they think for themselves.

[spine]

You don't need religion to have social and moral laws. I don't go and rape children or kill, but I'm also not relgious! Imagine that! The reason is simple: I'm not psychotic, I know of social laws, plus I simply don't have a natural will to do such things. I'm not religious and I don't perform actions only for my own amusment, I work, do favors for friends, help others, pursue relationships, etc. HOW CAN THIS BE!? I've got a brain.

Well said DD!

And mawibse, you say religion is based on free will!?

Well if you look throughout history you will see that the majority

of all wars are based on people's different opinions on religion.

So if forcing a religion on some people is to give them the

opportunity to live with free will, I must say religion has wery

fucked up way of working.

No no, religion is supposed to be a privat thing, if you want to or

feel you need to belive in something, then do! But dont try to

tell/force/preach it on to anyone, thats not how it works...

[mawibse]

You don't need religion to have social and moral laws. BLAH BLA BLAH HOW CAN THIS BE!? I've got a brain.

All that BLAH BLAH BLAH to state the obvious but missing my question.

WHY SHOULDN’T I DISREGARD ALL MORAL OR SOCIAL LAWS IF IT HAS NO FOR ME UNWANTED EFFECT?

Give me a reason.

I never said believeing in god is to live in fear.

you keep believeing in fear, I'm happy knowing you're worried about going to hell from about everything you do, and I'm not. HAH!

… that was a joke?

Free will is a fact, if I want to blow my nose, clean my ass, or take a shit, I do it. It's not an illusion to comfort me.

If that sentence was a try to prove the existence of free will it was the sorriest attempt I’ve seen. If those actions are free, prove it to me by not doing them for a week or two.

Free will:

“The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine willâ€

If you blow you’re nose it’s because you’re brain has registered large amounts of unwanted material in you’re nose canals and deemed the time to be appropriate to try and remove it.

Everything you do is the brain reacting to external stimuli in conjunction with it’s collection of stored information. And the brains stored information is a result from past external stimuli.

Where does “free will†come into that, and what is free will, exactly?

Is it when the electrical impulses can either go to one neuron or the other and asks the “consciousness†which one? (consciousness is also a part of the brain, consisting of neurons and electrical impulses based on stored information)

Tell you what, if you scientifically tell me what “free will†is, I will scientifically tell you what god is.

Well if you look throughout history you will see that the majority

of all wars are based on people's different opinions on religion.

What wars is it you think was truly religious and not based on power and greed with the excuse of religion?

But dont try to tell/force/preach it on to anyone, thats not how it works...

I understand force, but why can’t I try to tell/preach religion?

Should only atheists be allowed to preach their beliefs?

95% of the population? Nice stats, where did you get that from, your under regions?

... my "under regions"?

It's my belief that 95% of people, from all time, come from very uneducated roots and beginings.

So?

I'd say about 80% of currently living human population is actively part of a religion.

>~90% believe in a divine being (a god or similar), about 10% of those do not say they are actively part of a religion.

These numbers are from my memory. If you don’t trust them try find statistics that say otherwise, this is the internet after all. Try the United Nations site or something.

Great minds don't think alike, they think for themselves.

You think it's that easy? Great minds try to find the truth, not sound like a Mac commercial.

… great mind… “Nice stats, where did you get that from, your under regions?â€... *shakes head*

[RD]

im with mawibse

Free will is not a fact. All our thoughts begin in the subconsciousness which u have no control over. Like the large majority of ur body it functions automatically without u even knowing what it does. If u want to blow ur nose, then u blow ur nose. But who controls whether u WANT to blow it? Can u want to be castrated? Perhaps u can if u mess urself up really bad, but u have no direct control over what u want. If u cant control what u want, then u dont have much free choice do u?

Also the brain reacts to things that happen a small moment after they actually happened. What u see with ur eyes for example, actually happens a split second before u see it. So the past is gone, the present too short and the future not yet arrived, then where does ur free will live? There is no time in which it can make free decisions.

This is not my theory btw, just about evry research on the subject says things like these.

That doesnt mean the bible or koran is wrong saying God gave us free will, becuz (not sure about the bible) before we come to this earth we are souls, and god created our souls with free will. On earth we are humans, to test our soul. Perhaps our soul is in the present time (a moment so short we cant consciously be aware of it), and what our body does is only the reaction of what our soul decides in present time .

This is also not my theory btw, but it makes sense.

So that u have a free will is ur believe DD, not a fact. Even the science u worship disagrees with u on this subject Like religion, u havent thought it thru much but u closed it off in ur mind

[Guest The_Postman]

DD if you think believing in a god is to live in fear I understand why you patronize those with faith.

All religion is based on free will, without the belief in the existence of something more then the scientifically proved physical world, free will would not exist.

Free will is a belief, just like the belief in a god or a soul.

You can’t and never will scientifically prove its existence.

To beleive in it's existance is creating an illusion to comfort you. And I guess thats what you call being "weak", no?

Your irony wins the thread sir.

Either the common sense of over 95% of earth’s human populations is wrong, and the reason that we know of god is to create a purpose in an existence without.

Or god exists and you’re purpose is to find out if you have the faith in his existence and can control you’re actions to his will.

If god doesn’t exist I don’t see a reason to feel or act according to empathy.

If I kidnap rape and kill little girls and get away with it, what does it matter?

Sure the little girls would suffer terribly and so would their close ones but why should I care? Because my actions don’t increase my species population? Why care about a species amongst thousands of others in an existence without a purpose?

Because it makes you feel angry? Without anyone knowing or ever know who did it why should I care what you feel?

Without a god, and using only cold reasoning, the only true purpose is that all my actions should be to my own amusement, curiosity and benefit, no reason for anything else. No reason at all.

You're flailing your arms and shouting but my point remains firm. You see that don't you? God, religion, etc are machinations of mankind in an effort to explain the unexplainables of old. Why does the sun set? How did we get here? Why has my office partner been listening to the same Eminem song on loop for the last 3 days?

As per your lack of empathy due to the removal of religion? I disagree. Empathy is part of human nature. If you feel the need to go out and rape and kill little girls, that's your perogative, and might I suggest you seek help. You seem to suggest too that religion in general keeps man from lashing out in violent behavior against his neighbors. This, well, just go look at a newspaper or history book, I really don't want to get into that, as it describes itself rather well.

Free will, I believe, does exist. I have a strong amount of faith in human willpower as a way to change their own lives and the lives of those around them. If you believe you can do something you can, given enough time and effort. Your choices are yours alone. Pawning off responsibility for your actions to a diety or television is a complete cop out.

[RD]

science also explains old unexplainables, and science is true. So ur point is what? that religion explains things and so it must be false? And since humans abused religion it must be evil?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights literally comes from the Bible and Koran, just like the declaration of independence of the USA. Religion was abused for centuries becuz they ignored the bible.

Almost 2000yrs after god told us these laws we use them now and become the most powerful countries of the world

If u want to live with ppl that dont follow the bible and koran, move to Ruanda and enjoy

[Guest The_Postman]

science also explains old unexplainables, and science is true. So ur point is what? that religion explains things and so it must be false? And since humans abused religion it must be evil?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights literally comes from the Bible and Koran, just like the declaration of independence of the USA. Religion was abused for centuries becuz they ignored the bible.

Almost 2000yrs after god told us these laws we use them now and become the most powerful countries of the world, the countries that dont are poor and ruled by dictators

science also explains old unexplainables With documentation, studies, and actual fact. I hope you didn't seriously mean that in the context I'm guessing you meant.

that religion explains things and so it must be false? Uh, do I really need to field that? Trust me, a chariot doesn't drive the sun across the sky and we weren't created from dust. Myths to explain reality != fact.

And since humans abused religion it must be evil? Religion, the beliefs in and of themselves are not the problem. Organized religion is. The people that have always weilded and directed the abuse are the problem. God isn't the problem. Jesus isn't the problem. The Koran and Bible aren't the problems. The people that abuse them are.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights literally comes from the Bible and Koran, just like the declaration of independence of the USA. Read above.

Religion was abused for centuries becuz they ignored the bible. Yeah, and it's not now, right? Our "Christian" president I'm sure has nothing but good will towards those of different faiths. And Islamic militants sure aren't abusing the word of the Koran. The Hindus blowing up Islamic followers in India are sure heaping up some lovely karma too.

Almost 2000yrs after god told us these laws we use them now and become the most powerful countries of the world, the countries that dont are poor and ruled by dictators Rome? Greece? Egypt? The Aztecs, Mayans, Chinese, and other major civilizations outside of Judeo-Christian belief all had incredibly powerful and very expansive countries that endured longer than any modern nation. As per the small countries ruled by dictators etc, did you ever think that outside actions by other god-fearing, loving countries might have something to do with this? Ask Cuba. Anyhow, you really need to curb your zealotry, it's verging on the dangerously ignorant.

[Mojo]

This thread was originally about The Gay Marriage situation and has quickly spread well beyond its intended purposes. This has gone on long enough.