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Ringel

Impacts of the CS:GO Skin Workshop - More good or bad?

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@Radu Yeah that would be a crazy gamble.

It could help to not pay as much as Valve do. The amount of money they pay seems too large for me. But they already paid large. If they would start to pay only 2000$ per accepted skin some people would probably go super mad. Although it is still a good amount of money. At least for me.

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Please do not talk about LOWERING prices that Valve pays. Valve is generous in what they give (because the fact that they are paying you is enough as is to me) for sure but Valve also makes a literal shitton more from the skins than you will ever know. You're talking about hurting the community further to desensitize people from making content when the reality is that people are already there knowing that Valve only selects from a few in most cases. I'm not even sure what your point is anymore. Are you trying to say that Valve needs to tell skin makers to go heck themselves from now on? I feel like there may be a language issue going on here and maybe your words aren't meaning what you think they are (and I'm sorry if thats offensive but this is reading very strangely to me).

Edited by Haaselh0ff

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1 hour ago, Haaselh0ff said:

You're talking about hurting the community further to desensitize people from making content when the reality is that people are already there knowing that Valve only selects from a few in most cases. I'm not even sure what your point is anymore.

No. My points I stated in the main post remain.

1 hour ago, Haaselh0ff said:

Are you trying to say that Valve needs to tell skin makers to go heck themselves from now on?

No. I don't tell Valve what they need to do.

But if they would ask me what I would do in their situation I would tell them there are better ways to support content / skin creators without such negative side effects. Like by searching for hobby or self-employed artists and hire them for one ore more projects. They would still support artists and would be able to gain a high variety of skins without producing thousands of skins without true use. Off course this would make some workshop skin creators mad. But I would do it nevertheless. I could not live with the knowledge that people get tempted and also harmed by the system I initiated. This topic is much more complex than it seems to be. I am aware that plenty of people can't or don't want to comprehend the negative side effects. I also know the current system has more positive effects than I wrote. I try to keep everything I write as short as possible and only fill it with the most important.

I made this topic here because I was interested what other people think about the cs:go weapon skin workshop.

Edited by Ringel

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Well, I'd say there's a more fundamental issue that would need to be looked at first. That is, on Steam in general, moderation and quality control is near-non-existent. I'm kind of split on that, but in the interest of brevity lets just say I think both high- and low-moderation digital spaces have their place, but I don't think Valve should have let Steam become the latter.

And - secondly - the fact that steam workshops serve a double function, in that they are both used to share content among players, and as a means to submit content to be considered for addition to the game(s). That makes sense, since players are a part of that review process, but it does muddy the water tremendously. It's great that players can share content they made with their friends, and integrating this functionality into steam is great - but does it make sense to throw every 15 minute AIM map onto the same pile as projects people may have spent months or even years on? Many files are submitted without a valid title, description or relevant image - and Valve has done little to discourage it.

You'd think that takes care of itself, cream will rise to the top - but there's been plenty evidence to show that's not the case. There's rampant manipulation of the workshop systems, including - but not limited to - linking to malicious third party services. And Valve's dug their heels in the sand for that - thank god - but I guess I would argue they should have stepped in *before* it became a legal issue they couldn't ignore.

---------------------------------------------------

That may or may not be relevant to your point though.

In terms of payment, I think you're looking at it backwards. Valve doesn't just pay them as a congratulation for getting in the game, it's a share of the profits generated from the item. That's how I've always understood it, anyway.  How does your suggestion account for this? Are you suggesting Valve plainly skews the profits more towards themselves? Or should they split the revenue so all workshop creators share a part of the profit? I wouldn't say that's entirely crazy, but that brings us back to the first half of this post. There would need to be many layers of filtering before you could reasonably assume all the bots and 0 effort submissions have been taken out of the batch . . . and then what? Share equally among everyone? Rank every submission and pay based on quality? The former will just encourage slightly higher quality spam, the latter is essentially a watered down form of what we have now.

Does the fact that the same creators are often picked undermine the spirit of ''community created content''? Yes, absolutely. Does it mean players end up with a higher quality of content? Probably. Would hiring those creators to work in-house make any difference? Maybe.

You talk about wasted time like that's Valve's responsibility - but where does that end? Should reddit, youtube, and all social media be deleted for ''being a waste of time''? What about videogames? The only logical endpoint to your argument is that cs:go itself be removed. Is that hyperbolic? Maybe, but not much.

Spoiler

TL note: I'm probably much less angry than than the text would lead you to believe

 

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@Ringel, you writing as if something bad happened to a friend of yours. I hope is not the case.

But dude, you realise what you are writing is the equivalent of saying: Google should pick a few YouTubers and tell all the others to fuck off and do something more productive with their lives. Would you like a YouTube reduced to a handful of channels?

It’s not a company’s job to look after the mental health of their community, might sound cynic, but if you are in the conditions you describe, you’d do something stupid no matter what, if not skins then slot machines…

Plus the whole logic is incredibly condescending, how do you know that successful skin makers want to do that full time anyway. I imagine most people create skins as a hobby in their spare time anyway.

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Seems to me like you're talking about a "problem" that doesn't exist. At least not for anyone who's got their priorities more or less right.

What about the map workshop? I just checked and there's 118000+ submissions there. If you don't enjoy creating content for what it is (skins, maps, streaming, whatever) and are only in it for the money, why even bother doing it? We should be glad a thing like steam workshops even exists.

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13 hours ago, ThunderKeil said:

You talk about wasted time like that's Valve's responsibility - but where does that end? Should reddit, youtube, and all social media be deleted for ''being a waste of time''? What about videogames? The only logical endpoint to your argument is that cs:go itself be removed. Is that hyperbolic? Maybe, but not much.

  Reveal hidden contents

TL note: I'm probably much less angry than than the text would lead you to believe

 

The skins in the workshop have very little to no use except those who get accepted into the game. If you would insted create a skin for a model you can use for another project lika a map instead creating such a weapon skin it will have a use.

Please don't refer from one problem to another. this is solely about the problem the skin workhop has and is not to equate to those you mentioned.

What you write in the spoiler box is funny. People easily blame others to be mad or angry because they give criticism. I am absolutely not mad, offended or angry. I communicate without bad feelings. It is a very bad manner to say and write something while you have bad feelings. Because you easily say something you should not say and are not perfectly able to think straight. If I get feedback or constructive critisism I usually wait and think about it before I react. And I usually don't get mad or angry but still do this. It is very very hard to make me mad or beeing offended. And I was angry a very few times in my life.

10 hours ago, blackdog said:

@Ringel, you writing as if something bad happened to a friend of yours. I hope is not the case.

Not direclty to a friend. I think about almost everything and reflect all the time. I try to catch the whole thing. Not just what you see at first and second glance. My world is not only about me, I really care about others. I don't judge people, I try to understand them. Sometimes I also get in touch with people who got greater problems. Many "normal" healthy people who do many things they think are OK but in reality they causes harm with those minor thins to others, a former drugdealer, a rich guy who had bad and fake relationships and so on. Last time I talked to a beggar instead of just giving him money. I talked with him and now know his situation.

 What you write in the spoiler box is funny. People easily blame others to be mad or angry because they give criticism. I am absolutely not mad or angry, I give constructive criticism and feedback without bad feelings. It is a very bad manner to say and write something while you have bad feelings. Because you easily say something you should not say and are not perfectly able to think straight. If I get feedback or constructive critisism I usually wait and think about it before I react. And I usually don't get mad or angry but still do this. It is very very hard to make me mad. And I was angry a very few times in my life.

10 hours ago, blackdog said:

But dude, you realise what you are writing is the equivalent of saying: Google should pick a few YouTubers and tell all the others to fuck off and do something more productive with their lives. Would you like a YouTube reduced to a handful of channels?

No it is not. Can you really not see the differences?

10 hours ago, blackdog said:

It’s not a company’s job to look after the mental health of their community, might sound cynic, but if you are in the conditions you describe, you’d do something stupid no matter what, if not skins then slot machines…

It is not very wisely to say that there are also other problems of the same kind and thus this problem does not matter. If you can eliminate a problem you cause there is one less. If everyone would eliminate the problems they cause we had none.

Everything you do to others causes an impact. No matter how little it is. And you should take responsibility for everything you do. Valve created this system that has a great temptation which leads to act people how they should not act. They could change the system so it will not be as much negative as before. Or make a new one with none negative impacts. They could hire specified scientist, not just a financial consultant to create systems or change such systems like the weapon skin workshop or the weapon case itself.

Many years ago someone got angry at me and pushed me, so I pushed him back and he surprisingly felt. I was able to place my foot behind his head. If I wouldn't have done this he would have felt with the back side of his head on a very hard not well rounded edge. I would have harmed him. If you push someone like I did most of the time nothing really happens. But the more often you push someone the higher the chances that you do harm to someone. This aplies to all bad things you do to others. Also to the temptation of the skin workshop. You might not see the money temptation as something bad, but it is. Especially because the community is that big that you can be sure it greatly impacts some people negatively.

I know your own responsibility ends at some point. Example: If you make a butter knife and someone else uses it in a fight. Then it is clearly not your fault. But this example is something completely different and can't be compared to the subject here.

5 hours ago, Squad said:

Seems to me like you're talking about a "problem" that doesn't exist. At least not for anyone who's got their priorities more or less right.

It does. And it also effect people who got their things more or less right. But most likely not that much as someone who has greater problems.

It is the same with the weapon skin cases. There are some healthy people who played the game much longer and more often when a new case came out. Because they wanted to get them, sell them and make money. When I studied I knew one healthy guy who did that and I also was effected by this. Today such a thing can't effect me anymore. But in the past I should have spend the time with something else. It is just a little impact. But a bad one. Even normal people do such things and often neglect more important activities because of this. It is not directly Valves fault that I was affected by this but the system they implemented got a bad smell which tempts people and makes many people act like this. If they would just sell the skins instead of having cases and skins players can sell themself, there would be at least one temptation less. In my opinion there is no need that players can sell skins. Especially because this is a game. Money should not be of any interest for the players. Money has bad impacts.

5 hours ago, Squad said:

What about the map workshop? I just checked and there's 118000+ submissions there. If you don't enjoy creating content for what it is (skins, maps, streaming, whatever) and are only in it for the money, why even bother doing it? We should be glad a thing like steam workshops even exists.

Again, this is not about the whole workshop. Just the cs:go weapon skin workshop. There are some distinct differences.

Edited by Ringel

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13 hours ago, Ringel said:

It is the same with the weapon skin cases. There are some healthy people who played the game much longer and more often when a new case came out. Because they wanted to get them, sell them and make money. When I studied I knew one healthy guy who did that and I also was effected by this. Today such a thing can't effect me anymore. But in the past I should have spend the time with something else. It is just a little impact. But a bad one. Even normal people do such things and often neglect more important activities because of this. It is not directly Valves fault that I was affected by this but the system they implemented got a bad smell which tempts people and makes many people act like this. If they would just sell the skins instead of having cases and skins players can sell themself, there would be at least one temptation less. In my opinion there is no need that players can sell skins. Especially because this is a game. Money should not be of any interest for the players. Money has bad impacts.

Apples and oranges. I thought this was about the skin workshop and not skin gambling/loot boxes? That's a whole other topic.

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8 hours ago, Squad said:

Apples and oranges. I thought this was about the skin workshop and not skin gambling/loot boxes? That's a whole other topic.

One part of the weapon skin workshop is the temptation of the money. I tried to explain the temptation of money better and more personal for you. Some of you play or played cs:go but are not into making weapon skins. So I highlighed that even a small amount of money can make you play more than you would and neglect other things. I would have used my time with something valueable instead of playing cs:go so much to grab a case as soon as possible. And I really didn't needed the money at all. Today I can not be tempted by this anymore and thus I would not do such a thing again.

I assumed at least some of you were also playing more because of the ability to make a bit of money. Or at least were also a bit tempted. Such a small amount of money can make you behave the wrong way. So you now might have a better glimpse about how a great amount of money can impact you. Some skin creators will invest much more time because of the temptation and neglect other projects and activities. And some would never start to create cs:go skin without the temptation. This does not only have negative effect on the creators itself. Their friends and familie can also be effected. Looking at how big the community is and how little of them get supported by Valve makes this whole thing huge. It is a global problem.

Like I said, this whole thing is much more complex than it seems to be. It has something like an odor which spreads to everything that is connected to it and impacts everything that comes close to it for a longer time. No one, except god, will ever know the whole impacts it has. Because it effects much more people than just the skin creators. There are some more negative impacts I did not mentioned.

If Valve does not change the whole system (now I  don't just mean the skin workshop but also the skins and weapon skin cases and the ability players can sell them, because it sticks to it) it will become a much greater problem. If Valve does not get aware of this and takes care they will most likely create more such systems with very bad impacts in future projects. And people who look up to Valve will copy them. It will spread and I guess already spread to others. Again a global problem.

Edited by Ringel

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On 11/20/2020 at 8:58 AM, Ringel said:

No it is not. Can you really not see the differences?

It is not very wisely to say that there are also other problems of the same kind and thus this problem does not matter. If you can eliminate a problem you cause there is one less. If everyone would eliminate the problems they cause we had none.

Of course examples I've made are not the exact same, but there are more points in common than differences. What you are talking about is the "gambling mentality"... the difference is that whilst loot-boxes take from you (and are designed with that purpose), the workshop enables you to get something.

So comparing the Workshop to YouTube, the App Store, Steam itself or bonus schemes many employers have in place, is much closer to what you perceive as a problem... after all, just because you do crazy amount of overtime doesn't mean you'll get a bonus (and no, quality of work often doesn't come into play either -- you can easily find articles about how much office politics come into play in places like Google).

Sure, I can see that in extreme cases the gambling mentality could come into play in the context of the Workshop, but I'm sure nobody here believes it is a widespread phenomenon that is ruining thousands of lives; if you think it is, you need to provide some numbers and real examples, not what -up to now- is just your perception.
Even in the worst case, meaning your skins are not selected, you have something in your hands at the end of the process: you can use the skins (and maps) to find a job and you can sell your work on other asset stores... how learning a new skill was ever a problem??

If you have an "addiction" problem, as you see it, you don't need no Workshop to get hooked, you will fall for something else. I don't see how a system that gets you to produce something is negative.
Making games and game content is fucking hard, gamblers like it easy. If making skins comes so easy to someone, they must be experts in one of the fields required to make them, or they are determined to learn, either way it will be a calculated move to make skins... you are not going compulsively be like "M U S T - M A K E - S K I N S 🧟‍♂️" forget to eat, fob off your partner or child.

It would be crazy to close the Workshop and select some members to work on this stuff, like I said before, how do you even know the successful artists want to do this full time... do you understand you couldn't hire people that make up to 6-figures with a side-gig on a normal artist salary?
The only change I would personally welcome, would be an open market where you can buy and use whatever skin you like... that way anyone would have the chance to make some money and as a gamer I'd be happy cos I could get what I like, without over-spending opening dozens of cases.

~

I think it's great you have such a level of empathy, but if you are seeking out new "problems" to this extent, maybe you should rethink a bit your situation. Do some volunteering for example, I worked with people with mental illnesses and I felt I got more out of the experience myself than the people I supported.

Edited by blackdog

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1 hour ago, blackdog said:

...

Sure, I can see that in extreme cases the gambling mentality could come into play in the context of the Workshop, but I'm sure nobody here believes it is a widespread phenomenon that is ruining thousands of lives; if you think it is, you need to provide some numbers and real examples, not what -up to now- is just your perception.

..

I don't have the money to hire scientist who can proof this and not the time to search for as many people who are negatively impacted by this system. I also would not showcase any person. They would need to do this by their own. Like I wrote before Valve could hire scientist for this. To make sure they don't harm people with them. For me, it does not need to be proven if you got a good portion of wisdom and a wide range of understanding about how humans "function". But some people only want to believe when they have numbers, even if something is obvious. Especially when the obvious says they doing something wrong.

The other things you asked should I already answered in previous posts. I don't want to repeat myself over and over again.

Edit: It is funny that plenty of those who don't believe the obvious unless they have seen the proof do believe the opposite without having any proof.

Edited by Ringel

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The workshop is a place to share community content. It is not a market place. Uploading to the workshop does not promise you any kind of payoff.

Csgo is one of those rare games where you have the slim chance of making some decent money from your fan content and that's pretty amazing for anyone interested in that sort of stuff.

The workshop is where that content is picked, because it makes sense to use your own content sharing platform for picking your community content, but they are otherwise separate.

You could argue that valve could be more fair with picking skins, but that's just not what their goal is and as fair as I know, they never claimed it was.

They are looking for content that they like to add to their game. The community produces some of that content. The people who made that content get a decent share of the money made from it.

It's not a good system to get a job or make a good income, but no one ever claimed it was or tried to make it that.

If you like the game and you like making 3d content, you get to make content for the game and share it with others on the workshop. And if you are lucky, you might see your content in the game and some cash in your pocket. That's an added bonus. It's not a promise not an expectation. Don't treat it like it is, or it'll make you unhappy.

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