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Ringel

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I believe your intentions are good, Ringle. I think one reason why some people feel somewhat insulted, for lack of a better word, is because you keep calling for more innovation, which implies you believe we aren't all trying to be innovative already. I'm sure many of us here are genuinely trying to push the boundaries of what CSGO can be, but we all have different takes on how to accomplish that.

Maybe you didn't find any of the last mapping competition entries to be innovative and that's perfectly fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But I would argue Swamp was pretty innovative—it actually created a new mechanic, albeit a frustrating one. But hey, they tried something new, something risky and that's commendable. Basalt has a pretty unique mid with its arena-like structure and manages to capture a very open-world feel while still having boundaries that make it playable. 

For some people, putting a twist on the classic clover design is being innovative because that's about as much wiggle room as their paradigm of CSGO allows. It's not that they aren't thinking outside of the box, it's that they are doing what they believe pushes boundaries while still allowing the game to feel like Counter-strike. It's out of respect. You can only twist and bend the rules of checkers so much before it becomes chess.

If you're unimpressed with the lack of innovation here, then that just means the glory is yours for the taking. If you come up with a design that's fun and pushes the boundaries, it will get noticed and it will stick.

Thorin once mentioned there is no so-called "Michael Bay" of map design. CS maps have always found success in a sort of viral way. Keep throwing shit until it sticks—in a thoughtful manner of course. 😉

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6 hours ago, Kokopelli said:

I believe your intentions are good, Ringle. I think one reason why some people feel somewhat insulted, for lack of a better word, is because you keep calling for more innovation, which implies you believe we aren't all trying to be innovative already. I'm sure many of us here are genuinely trying to push the boundaries of what CSGO can be, but we all have different takes on how to accomplish that.

Maybe you didn't find any of the last mapping competition entries to be innovative and that's perfectly fine, you're entitled to your opinion. But I would argue Swamp was pretty innovative—it actually created a new mechanic, albeit a frustrating one. But hey, they tried something new, something risky and that's commendable. Basalt has a pretty unique mid with its arena-like structure and manages to capture a very open-world feel while still having boundaries that make it playable. 

For some people, putting a twist on the classic clover design is being innovative because that's about as much wiggle room as their paradigm of CSGO allows. It's not that they aren't thinking outside of the box, it's that they are doing what they believe pushes boundaries while still allowing the game to feel like Counter-strike. It's out of respect. You can only twist and bend the rules of checkers so much before it becomes chess.

If you're unimpressed with the lack of innovation here, then that just means the glory is yours for the taking. If you come up with a design that's fun and pushes the boundaries, it will get noticed and it will stick.

Thorin once mentioned there is no so-called "Michael Bay" of map design. CS maps have always found success in a sort of viral way. Keep throwing shit until it sticks—in a thoughtful manner of course. 😉

You are right. I was just too focused on what I think can be innovated in a certain way. I guess thats why I didn't recognized the innovations of others which goes another way. I do believe people try something new, but only in a restricted already given ruleset which was just more of the same for me. I believe the ruleset can be widened without destroying the game. But developing something new takes time and most likely more than one approach. And it is better to accomplish this within a development-team of two or three people and of course with the help / feedback of others.

Edited by Ringel

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@Ringel from your repeated posts where you are raising more or less the same theme i understand that you feel frustrated that your work, ideas and effort are not recognized at least on a scale that it will make you satisfied. 

If you aspire to work in the game industry don't limit yourself to a narrow niche like csgo. But if you don't, my advice is to take a break. You won't be young forever and it's not worth the trouble consuming yourself with virtual problems.(no vale la pena amigo). Not all the hobbyists will be great level designers and artists. And by the way, these are professions that require study not just enthusiasm and talent. 

I have spoken!😋

Edited by Serialmapper

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1 hour ago, Serialmapper said:

@Ringel from your repeated posts where you are raising more or less the same theme i understand that you feel frustrated that your work, ideas and effort are not recognized at least on a scale that it will make you satisfied. 

If you aspire to work in the game industry don't limit yourself to a narrow niche like csgo. But if you don't, my advice is to take a break. You won't be young forever and it's not worth the trouble consuming yourself with virtual problems.(no vale la pena amigo). Not all the hobbyists will be great level designers and artists. And by the way, these are professions that require study not just enthusiasm and talent. 

I have spoken!😋

I am not frustrated anymore, but I once was. I don't expect to get any satisfaction from developing cs:go maps and ideas for the game. I am truly a new person from the day I got baptised last year. I get everything I need from god. All I want is to give something to others without expecting to get something in return.

I took a break for several months before and came back 22nd of November 2019 to cs:go mapping in the believe I could give something valuable to the community. I spent 1555 hours develop maps since then. I got more and more tired and I am now very tired and stopped working on maps almost two weeks ago. Because it feels like my work is not wanted. Thus I might spend my time with something completely new from now on. I hope I could at least inspire a few. I am open and ready for new adventures. smileD.png.129fb68fcf6867a0ce61881a7666450e.png 

Edited by Ringel

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Calling the top contest maps conformist and not innovative and saying their creators are only in it for the prize pool seems to be popular with people who haven't really been part of the community that produces these maps. But it doesn't reflect reality at all.

From my experience, for the guys who make these maps, level design and environment art are their passion and the prize pool and competition only serve as an excuse to spend the time required for such a project on a hobby. These maps are the communities best effort to create new competitive Counter-Strike maps.

That is also the reason you are not seeing crazy new layout formats, 3 bombsite designs or highly overdeveloped layouts sparsely decorated with stock assets. Competitive Counter-Strike is a massive esport with a huge playerbase. The expected gameplay loops have long been defined. The amount of complexity and control players have on maps is expected to be fine tuned to what people are used to. The aesthetic and its priority in relation to gameplay has long been defined. At this point, for competitive CS making an innovative map really does mean coming up with fresh spins on old ideas.

If you don't want to be tied down by those restrictions, the game has a few other game modes that are worth mapping for. Dangerzone and Wingman are getting a lot more attention in the community right now. Both of these game modes have not been around for very long and are still very open to new concepts and ideas. Hostage desperately needs an entire rework of its mechanics and or economy. And nothing is stopping you from developing your own game mode. 3 bomb sites simply do not fit what 5v5 competitive cs is all about. Doesn't mean you can't make a fun game mode around 3v3 maps.

Just a bit pointless to complain about all those things not being part of or winning in a contest that is about 5v5 comp maps. 

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1 hour ago, csWaldo said:

Calling the top contest maps conformist and not innovative and saying their creators are only in it for the prize pool..

 

1 hour ago, csWaldo said:

.. From my experience, for the guys who make these maps, level design and environment art are their passion and the prize pool and competition only serve as an excuse to spend the time required for such a project on a hobby. ..

I never said the creator of the top maps do this for the money.This what I said:

On 7/22/2020 at 10:36 AM, Ringel said:

I don't care about money and whether one of my maps get into the game or not. But I got the feeling many just entered because of the prizepool.

I guess the most creators of the most high quality maps are not just in for the prizepool. But I don't know that I can only assume that. From my experience and what I saw there are people who are mostly in for the prizepool. One indication is that many abandoned their maps after they did not make it into the second round and some of them started new projects or went back to older ones.

1 hour ago, csWaldo said:

The expected gameplay loops have long been defined. The amount of complexity and control players have on maps is expected to be fine tuned to what people are used to. The aesthetic and its priority in relation to gameplay has long been defined. At this point, for competitive CS making an innovative map really does mean coming up with fresh spins on old ideas.

..3 bomb sites simply do not fit what 5v5 competitive cs is all about.

  You say this as it would be fact without beeing able to prove it. Valorant has a 3 bombsite map and it is most likely just a matter of time until a high quality version of this map pops up in the steam workshop for cs. There are very talented young map developers who just create whatever they want. I assume they will create different versions of this map and start to develop their own 3 bombsite maps for cs:go. Time will tell if any of these maps will work for 5v5 in cs:go.

Some players are also only casual players, many are casual competitive and I assume only a small amount of the whole playerbase are real competitive players. Well designed 3 bombsite maps will definitely work for some casual 5v5 players.

1 hour ago, csWaldo said:

Just a bit pointless to complain about all those things not being part of or winning in a contest that is about 5v5 comp maps. 

I was never complaining. You really should stop writing your assumptions as they would be fact. I can also nothing read about that the contest was only for competitive maps.

On 5/15/2019 at 8:06 PM, FMPONE said:

Mapcore is now holding a Counter-Strike: Global Offensive Mapping Contest for original 5v5 bomb defusal maps AND hostage-rescue maps, powered by FACEIT!

 

Powered by FACEIT but that is all. Another assumption of yours that is not fact. Original 5v5 bomb defusal maps AND hostage-rescue maps.. Hostage rescue..

1 hour ago, csWaldo said:

Hostage desperately needs an entire rework of its mechanics and or economy.

Ooops. Guess that makes it not 5v5 competitive viable for you?

Looks like you interpret / understand many things wrong.

Edited by Ringel

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Seriously man, you seem frustrated. You want something from CSGO and more specifically its mapping community which multiple people have repeatedly, politely laid out to you, is not what their understanding of CSGO is about. 

There is very close to zero point in continuing this conversation, if you do not listen to these people's opinions or simply deem them too narrow-minded because they don't fit with yours. I needn't repeat any arguments, they're all out here already, strewn across your content, SoldatDuChrist's and now even the WIP thread. 

Why do you keep fighting this crusade? I suggest you take a step back, reconsider what you want from the game and this forum, and then, if you feel like it anymore, reenter the discourse.   

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26 minutes ago, Ringel said:

 

I never said the creator of the top maps do this for the money.This what I said:

I guess the most creators of the most high quality maps are not just in for the prizepool. But I don't know that I can only assume that. From my experience and what I saw there are people who are mostly in for the prizepool. One indication is that many abandoned their maps after they did not make it into the second round and some of them started new projects or went back to older ones.

Again, do you really think someone would work hundreds of hours for a chance at some few thousand dollars? Even if you get first place with 2 other people and spend only something like 300 hours on it, that's barely minimum wage where I live.

26 minutes ago, Ringel said:

You say this as it would be fact without beeing able to prove it. Valorant has a 3 bombsite map and it is most likely just a matter of time until a high quality version of this map pops up in the steam workshop for cs. There are very talented young map developers who just create whatever they want. I assume they will create different versions of this map and start to develop their own 3 bombsite maps for cs:go. Time will tell if any of these maps will work for 5v5 in cs:go.

Valorant's map design is probably one of it's biggest weaknesses and one of the primary things people critize about it.

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I guess the most creators of the most high quality maps are not just in for the prizepool. But I don't know that I can only assume that. From my experience and what I saw there are people who are mostly in for the prizepool. One indication is that many abandoned their maps after they did not make it into the second round and some of them started new projects or went back to older ones.

you'd be the surprised by the circumstances that come into play.

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1 hour ago, Vaya said:

you'd be the surprised by the circumstances that come into play.

Yeah, I feel like one easy explanation for that scenario is the designers simply deemed their project unsuccessful after not passing the first round and decided to move onto another project. No sense in laboriously polishing a turd. People just want to use their time wisely.

You have to be judicious about where you put your energy. If you're developing a hostage map for example, you're really risking being disappointed because it's a neglected game mode and frankly it needs re-balancing on Valve's side in regards to economy to even be viable (CT side gets punished extra hard in hostage mode because they have to play offense with weaker and more expensive guns). So you really need to go into it fully prepared to be disappointed. 

I wouldn't say a balanced 3 bombsite map is impossible, but it's an incredibly daunting problem to solve and a very risky time investment, and many would say betrays a fundamental structure of the game. A map with 3 bombsites inherently forces the defending team to spread themselves thin, so you would really have to rethink all of the game's dynamics. It's not simply creating 3 bombsites and having standard rotation times between them. The bombsites would have to have relationships with each other in ways we've never seen in a CS:GO map. I think the main reason it's not completely broken in Valorant is because the map design is very rigid and it's easier for players to solo hold corridors. All the intel-gathering abilities factor in as well.

There's plenty of room for innovation with 2 bombsites though. I mean, shit, that's hard enough! Look at all the amazing stuff people have made here and how little has stuck after so long.

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For a moment there I genuinely thought Ringo had found some sort of inner peace and his whole crusade might have come to a tranquil close, but then he comes back swinging. What a (weird) champ. Never change Ringer. You do you, and make sure to incessantly demand that everyone else do you as well.

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