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Akashi - イェスタディ

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03/07/2020
I'm currently working on a few more changes to the map layout and completely redoing mid (again.....)
Hopefully I'll be able to update everyone soon ~^^~
Also sorry for the lack of updates recently, I've been struggling with mental health. I hope everyone is okiii in these
tough times and if anyone wants to talk about mental health issues or even would just like to chat don't
hesitate to message me. I'm always open  ~^^~ 
message me on Discord: イェスタディ#8478
Instagram: @_yesturdei_
Steam friend code: 311977438

also a massive thank you to @Almaas for teaching me how to make custom models and props for source sdk ~^^~
and thank you to @Waldo @Assassin and @Squidski  

Please keep giving me feedback as it really helps and I appreciate it a lot I know there's not a lot of change recently but hopefully within the next few days I'll have more changes to show ~^^~


02/07/2020
After more extensive play-testing a few changes were made to the layout.
1249285953_A.jpg.5c4ad4582a0b013f47e4a4d26364f5ce.jpg1921800523_B.jpg.4cf40c576b69a98510732be692e2710b.jpg

19/06/2020
I spent the last 3 days learning how to use blender and followed Blender Guru's amazing doughnut tutorial series. It's very good and
highly recommend it to people trying to learn the blender interface. He's what I produced learning form the tutorial.
unfortunately had to lower the quality of the image and size so it was less than 2.13MB.
Hopefully within the next few days I'll learn how to model props for source and for use in games as @Squidski and @Almaas  mentioned
that for games you want to watch your tri count and keep it low. ^^
Any tips on how to make props for source using blender than please comment below, or if you know any good videos please let me know ~^^~ ❤️
BlenderGuruTutorialDonutresize.jpg.a0dfea0035aef7f6cf79067e2f498ba9.jpg

16/06/2020
Sorry for the lack of updates recently, due to personal reasons I took a short break.
I've made a very basic BSP layout to play-test and it's very fun to play on.
I noticed a few things to change such as clip brushes to stop people getting out of the map and to place some strategic obstacles to block some
sight-lines that are a little too broken. Bombsite A hasn't changed much other than in size and one of the entrances for T's has been changed to
make it more balanced. I also added a window for CT's as well and removed a few bits of cover. The lower section of bombsite A will be changed as well
as it wasn't very interesting to play in. Bombsite B will also be changed slightly but only by moving some cover and adding one more wall as cover.
Using Terragen 4 I had a go at creating my first custom skybox which was lots of fun and there are some amazing tutorials on Mapcore.
I also had to learn to use VIDE to get my skybox to show up for other people, big thank you to @NihiL for his amazing tutorial ❤️
The last thing I did was to start to work on the appearance of the map. I plan on learning how to make my own custom props
however this might take a while so the next update will probably be next week ~^^~
any feedback is welcome ❤️

27016642_.jpg.2ae7ded8628047031e36d13391721362.jpg1169903548_.jpg.4cf25faaec0ee61f36ea3b8f4fd36076.jpg597175256_.jpg.3f801b87730e9476eda2bba55c808b3c.jpg707727585_A.jpg.2fef6aef98f2675375fb6f76877a57ea.jpg772758396_B.jpg.a41e569c630a07ddb6761e363952f31d.jpg378965639_.jpg.5b5d634459292e90676145f08f87c363.jpg

05/06/2020

Major layout changes:
Based off of the amazing feedback I've received from everyone and combined with thorough play-testing
with friends, I have made changes to the overall layout to Akashi.
I removed a lot of the narrow corridors and cut down on the number of connecting pathways.
Bombsite B was... terrible to play -^^-
Because of this I redid the entire of Bombsite B. Mid was very boring to play so I also redid Mid...
CT spawn was moved next to Bombsite B similar to Overpass CT spawn. Although this might seem
unbalanced, it will help with timings and give CT's an option to play aggressively or passively.
Bombsite A was also changed slightly from feedback gathered through play-testing. I also moved it closer to CT spawn.
In the layout sketch I also included some of my basic sketches of things that might be included in the map (rocks, Torii, walls and monorail).
Thank you to everyone for the amazing feedback so far, please keep give your opinions / feedback below ~^^~ ❤️
1340011595_.jpg.5c0d969ad9a18f420eeae61ef5680cbb.jpg
 

02/06/2020

Finished a very very basic layout so I can play-test.
Changed a few things from the initial sketches, however, the layout is extremely close.
Any feedback is welcomed ~^^~
thank you everyone who has already left amazing feedback below ❤️

 

2052787917_.jpg.701bd473494f54379799642d4ae68d33.jpg2001988774_.jpg.7e27644ee5842e0e40e1a69c7ce3ddd1.jpg638196943_A.jpg.ac810e05009c0325437f3c8fa0d4f1d1.jpg1542024873_B.jpg.e90b4b89f2d910b2f1c276544b09d72d.jpg507568723_.jpg.0ff29da16a8f8b2b8ef66c48b3263a85.jpg

 

31/05/2020

This is the second top-down layout sketch for Akashi.
A few minor changes to mid and CT.
Thank you everyone for the amazing feedback ~^^~

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30/05/2020

Hiii ~^^~
This is the start of Akashi's development and attached is the initial sketch of the layout.
This is still early development so any feedback would be appreciated ❤️

あかし初期スケッチ.jpg
 

 

Edited by イェスタディ
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On 5/31/2020 at 2:36 AM, Nication said:

I don't thing that there's a lot of feedback that can be given from a layout sketch, but the scale seems to be HUUUGE! It might be only impression tho.

I have had issues with scale. I managed to sort it out a little bit.... however that might be a big concern in the future. 
@Nication thank you so much for the feedback means a lot to me ❤️ 
~^^~

On 5/31/2020 at 7:40 AM, MetaNewt said:

I like the sketch, lol :)

@MetaNewt thank you so much ~^^~ ❤️ 

Edited by イェスタディ

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Interesting thematic ideas and shapes. However, the design may be too complex to be enjoyable. Several of the paths drawn are redundant and easily removable, making the map easier to understand. Here is an example of such a revision:

Capture.PNG.e06b5168d12439e9227c9e65d62ae654.PNG

If you keep your paths to the bare minimum, you will see what additional paths are needed as you playtest the map (if any). 

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Too many paths are bad and too less are also bad.

If you keep it as simple as possible the map will be much easier to learn and feel more familiar. But if you make it simple, it will most likely become just a copy of something that is already out there.

It seems like most people here think it is bad that players have to get to know your map. So, they want to make everything as comfortable and convenint as possible for players to get a good start and feeling while running around your map at the first time. You can do this, but in my opinion there are already enough noob friendly maps out there. Like dust 2. A more complex map has to be explored and you need to get to know it. But if you create a good one it will be worth it.

People easily say to you that some paths or areas are redundant. This is because they are stuck to what they learned and just repeat what they believe is the best. But that is not always the truth. Many "redundant" paths are of good use. For reasons they can't even imagine. Those paths can make your map more fun and unique and gives it a better fresh taste. But this has to be tested. And I mean really tested, not just checked. One or a few more playtests will most likely not be enough for that. Because players could play your map as it would be a standard map and might not get how to play it until they played it more often with an open mind. Most stick to what they already learned, just copy what they see others do and rarely come up with something new by their own. You have to teach them new ways or wait until someone who likes to come up with new things found out how to play it. Don't get me wrong, a few things only need to be checked to know whether they work or not. Feedback is very important, but also to filter out the most useful feedback and not just say yes to everything.

If you want to create something new then think outside of the box and do what you are interested in. This is much harder than just following the given rules and make your map good and acceptable by following them. Because you might fail and most likely will fail at your first attempts. But if you keep doing it your way and improve it with every project you can create something new and wonderfull.

It is up to you if you want to make just another standard map or something unique. So, find out what kind of map you want to make.

One more advice. Find one or two who likes the concept of your map and team up with them to improve it as much as possible. This will make some things easier.

Edited by Ringel

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19 minutes ago, Ringel said:

But if you make it simple, it will most likely become just a copy of something that is allready out there.

Complexity does not equal innovation. You can innovate a level layout without mindlessly adding more and more routes. There is a variety of tools you can work with that are not "paths".

One of the reasons why relatively "simple" geometry works well in Counter-Strike is predictability. In Counter-Strike you die very very quickly. If you get caught of guard, you are basically done for since you, as a player, don't have many tools to escape a sticky situation. Being killed from behind is NOT fun. That has nothing to do with "learning the ways of the map". If the map geometry becomes too complex, it decreases predictability, since players cannot rely on their back being safe. Furthermore, and that seems to be the point you are critizing it does make players having a harder time to learn the map. You got to keep in mind, that people will most likely spend their time doing something else, than trying to disect your complex layout just to master it. People don't do that.

On 5/30/2020 at 10:24 PM, イェスタディ said:

あかし初期スケッチ.jpg

To give some feedback on the acutal piece: I think that's a pretty good starting point. I agree with @Interfearance that it could use some simplification in some parts. Parts of the map also feel a little cramped, like the CT area on mid.

Furthermore there are a bunch of very long, straight and fairly bland routes, especially leading East and West from CT spawn.

Routing for CTs that wanna go mid, feels a little weird since you have to run a "U-Shape" followed by a "S-Shape". Might be a little tedious to navigate.

Retaking A side for CTs seems tough, since they have hardly any cover at close to the site.

Keep it going! Hope to see the layout ingame soon :) Good job so far

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18 minutes ago, poLemin said:

Complexity does not equal innovation. You can innovate a level layout without mindlessly adding more and more routes. There is a variety of tools you can work with that are not "paths".

I agree, no one should work on a map mindlessly.

18 minutes ago, poLemin said:

One of the reasons why relatively "simple" geometry works well in Counter-Strike is predictability. In Counter-Strike you die very very quickly. If you get caught of guard, you are basically done for since you, as a player, don't have many tools to escape a sticky situation. Being killed from behind is NOT fun. That has nothing to do with "learning the ways of the map". If the map geometry becomes too complex, it decreases predictability, since players cannot rely on their back being safe.

Many players play too unaware. Don't read the minimap and stare only at one direction. As I played the game I often saw a group of people only looking at one entrance and they left the only one other they came from totally open and uncovered. I could often cought three or more people of guard because of that. Such people need to learn the game instead of learning the map.

18 minutes ago, poLemin said:

Furthermore, and that seems to be the point you are critizing it does make players having a harder time to learn the map. You got to keep in mind, that people will most likely spend their time doing something else, than trying to disect your complex layout just to master it. People don't do that.

If you make the map fun they will learn it over time without have to dissect the map. Just by playing it. Oh and there are new players who do that. Most of them are new players or some who want something new.

Edited by Ringel

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20 hours ago, Interfearance said:

Interesting thematic ideas and shapes. However, the design may be too complex to be enjoyable. Several of the paths drawn are redundant and easily removable, making the map easier to understand. Here is an example of such a revision:

Capture.PNG.e06b5168d12439e9227c9e65d62ae654.PNG

If you keep your paths to the bare minimum, you will see what additional paths are needed as you playtest the map (if any). 

@Interfearance Thank you for the feedback, I have the same feeling that it's a little too complex. I'm going to be play-testing the map tonight (02/06/2020) with some friends so hopefully then I'll find out what works with it and what doesn't. 
~^^~ ❤️

 

4 hours ago, Ringel said:

Too many paths are bad and too less are also bad.

If you keep it as simple as possible the map will be much easier to learn and feel more familiar. But if you make it simple, it will most likely become just a copy of something that is already out there.

It seems like most people here think it is bad that players have to get to know your map. So, they want to make everything as comfortable and convenint as possible for players to get a good start and feeling while running around your map at the first time. You can do this, but in my opinion there are already enough noob friendly maps out there. Like dust 2. A more complex map has to be explored and you need to get to know it. But if you create a good one it will be worth it.

People easily say to you that some paths or areas are redundant. This is because they are stuck to what they learned and just repeat what they believe is the best. But that is not always the truth. Many "redundant" paths are of good use. For reasons they can't even imagine. Those paths can make your map more fun and unique and gives it a better fresh taste. But this has to be tested. And I mean really tested, not just checked. One or a few more playtests will most likely not be enough for that. Because players could play your map as it would be a standard map and might not get how to play it until they played it more often with an open mind. Most stick to what they already learned, just copy what they see others do and rarely come up with something new by their own. You have to teach them new ways or wait until someone who likes to come up with new things found out how to play it. Don't get me wrong, a few things only need to be checked to know whether they work or not. Feedback is very important, but also to filter out the most useful feedback and not just say yes to everything.

If you want to create something new then think outside of the box and do what you are interested in. This is much harder than just following the given rules and make your map good and acceptable by following them. Because you might fail and most likely will fail at your first attempts. But if you keep doing it your way and improve it with every project you can create something new and wonderfull.

It is up to you if you want to make just another standard map or something unique. So, find out what kind of map you want to make.

One more advice. Find one or two who likes the concept of your map and team up with them to improve it as much as possible. This will make some things easier.

@Ringel thank you for the feedback ^^ 
I understand what you're saying and I appreciate it ❤️
In this early development stage I feel lots can change so I will realise if there are too many paths or any missing paths hopefully after a few play-tests. I might end up moving a couple of paths as well. 

4 hours ago, poLemin said:

Complexity does not equal innovation. You can innovate a level layout without mindlessly adding more and more routes. There is a variety of tools you can work with that are not "paths".

One of the reasons why relatively "simple" geometry works well in Counter-Strike is predictability. In Counter-Strike you die very very quickly. If you get caught of guard, you are basically done for since you, as a player, don't have many tools to escape a sticky situation. Being killed from behind is NOT fun. That has nothing to do with "learning the ways of the map". If the map geometry becomes too complex, it decreases predictability, since players cannot rely on their back being safe. Furthermore, and that seems to be the point you are critizing it does make players having a harder time to learn the map. You got to keep in mind, that people will most likely spend their time doing something else, than trying to disect your complex layout just to master it. People don't do that.

To give some feedback on the acutal piece: I think that's a pretty good starting point. I agree with @Interfearance that it could use some simplification in some parts. Parts of the map also feel a little cramped, like the CT area on mid.

Furthermore there are a bunch of very long, straight and fairly bland routes, especially leading East and West from CT spawn.

Routing for CTs that wanna go mid, feels a little weird since you have to run a "U-Shape" followed by a "S-Shape". Might be a little tedious to navigate.

Retaking A side for CTs seems tough, since they have hardly any cover at close to the site.

Keep it going! Hope to see the layout ingame soon :) Good job so far

unfortunately my biggest issue starting off is scaling, however I've addressed a few of these problems in my first very very basic BSP layout. 
(screenshots coming soon ~^^~). @poLemin Thank you so much for the feedback as well ❤️ 
like I said to @Interfearance I'm going to be play-testing with my friends tonight (02/06/2020) so after this I can make some changes. 
Through play-testing against bots it feels relatively balanced... although hard bots aren't exactly good opponents.... ^^ 

Edited by イェスタディ

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I totally agree on what @Interfearance and @poLemin are saying.

About @Ringel his statement I wouldn't so much agree except for trying out new things is cool and sure why not experiment some.
Just I feel you lose seight of what is the core of the game and the LD rules that are involved.
If you want to design a map for the classic CS mode, I would recommand sticking to the core meta and LD rules of the game.
Simply, because this game is out here for a very long time and some things work and some just don't and knowing about it comes with knowledge and experience (which interfearance and polemin share).

So for a 5 vs 5 gamemode, you dont want just 1 chokepoint or 10 chokepoints because there is no way the attacker can get passed one chokepoint (lacking options) or the defender can hold 10 chokepoints (too many options). The CS:GO levels have unwritten rules for this to make the gamemode work with 10 players and 2 objectives, changing these metas will make your map not play well and not be fun (unbalanced). I think Polemin explained some of this with his feedback and examples.

I do not want to make this thread a discussion about this topic, but do want you to be aware of whats being said from which standpoint. Trying new layouts is cool (vertigo, train, nuke), but they do however apply to these unwritten rules. Also there is nothing wrong with your 'basic' three lane layout as it has proven to work, you can change small things within the meta to make it more interesting and try out some new ideas to make it different from other maps and have it play as you want it to play. 

To stick to the topic, the sketch looks pretty solid with Interfearance adjustments and Polemins points being thought off, just block it out (as it always changes in hammer) and when the basic timings, chokepoints and cover is there have a playtest and find out!

(oh CT spawn looks very long and streched out on your sketch just now)

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1 hour ago, Roald said:

I totally agree on what @Interfearance and @poLemin are saying.

About @Ringel his statement I wouldn't so much agree except for trying out new things is cool and sure why not experiment some.
Just I feel you lose seight of what is the core of the game and the LD rules that are involved.
If you want to design a map for the classic CS mode, I would recommand sticking to the core meta and LD rules of the game.
Simply, because this game is out here for a very long time and some things work and some just don't and knowing about it comes with knowledge and experience (which interfearance and polemin share).

So for a 5 vs 5 gamemode, you dont want just 1 chokepoint or 10 chokepoints because there is no way the attacker can get passed one chokepoint (lacking options) or the defender can hold 10 chokepoints (too many options). The CS:GO levels have unwritten rules for this to make the gamemode work with 10 players and 2 objectives, changing these metas will make your map not play well and not be fun (unbalanced). I think Polemin explained some of this with his feedback and examples.

I do not want to make this thread a discussion about this topic, but do want you to be aware of whats being said from which standpoint. Trying new layouts is cool (vertigo, train, nuke), but they do however apply to these unwritten rules. Also there is nothing wrong with your 'basic' three lane layout as it has proven to work, you can change small things within the meta to make it more interesting and try out some new ideas to make it different from other maps and have it play as you want it to play. 

To stick to the topic, the sketch looks pretty solid with Interfearance adjustments and Polemins points being thought off, just block it out (as it always changes in hammer) and when the basic timings, chokepoints and cover is there have a playtest and find out!

(oh CT spawn looks very long and streched out on your sketch just now)

@Roald Thank you so much for the feedback ❤️ 
means a lot ~^^~ 
I've been play-testing with my friends a lot and now have a better understanding if what needs to be changed. Also all the amazing feedback I've been getting has helped a lot ❤️ 

Offline, I've been running around the official maps (Mirage, Train, Overpass, Anubis, Inferno, Cobble (old version), Italy ) to get a better understanding of what works ^^
Hopefully within the next couple of days I'll have made changes to the layout, these will be major changes and the map might be completely different I'm not sure yet... 
however expect an update soon ~^^~ 

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1 hour ago, Roald said:

About @Ringel his statement I wouldn't so much agree except for trying out new things is cool and sure why not experiment some.
Just I feel you lose seight of what is the core of the game and the LD rules that are involved.
If you want to design a map for the classic CS mode, I would recommand sticking to the core meta and LD rules of the game.
Simply, because this game is out here for a very long time and some things work and some just don't and knowing about it comes with knowledge and experience (which interfearance and polemin share).

Sometimes I feel I lost a bit of sight, and maybe I did, because of all the criticsm I get. But I stick to my points and believe they are right.

If we compare this game to other team sports like basketball, football or american football it is a very young game, e-sport. CSGO has much more potential and can played more versatile than it is currently played. The maps also have more potential and could be more diverse. Changing peoples thinking is hard as soon as they think they know how something works. Until someone comes with something new. This happens in sports from time to time. But it can take a loger time than csgo already exist.

Edit: I got the theory by adding more diverse maps it will help players to find new ways to play and evolve the game.

Edited by Ringel

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I think it's with levels like it's with most other arts and crafts - yes breaking from the traditional rules and making more diverse maps is good and should be encouraged, however imo you can only do that meaningfully if you understand why the traditional rules exist in the first place, which usually means sticking to them until you've got some experience.

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On 6/5/2020 at 2:18 PM, Nakroma said:

I think it's with levels like it's with most other arts and crafts - yes breaking from the traditional rules and making more diverse maps is good and should be encouraged, however imo you can only do that meaningfully if you understand why the traditional rules exist in the first place, which usually means sticking to them until you've got some experience.

I agree, I started off trying to do too many new things and put my theme before the layout and game play, Which was a big mistake. So after some play-testing I went back to the basics and redesigned the layout to better suit game play and now it's more enjoyable to play on the map ^^ ❤️

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I'm currently working on a few more changes to the map layout and completely redoing mid (again.....) Hopefully I'll be able to update everyone soon ~^^~
Also sorry for the lack of updates recently, I've been struggling with mental health. I hope everyone is okiii in these tough times and if anyone wants to talk about mental health issues or even would just like to chat don't hesitate to message me. I'm always open  ~^^~ ❤️
message me on Discord: イェスタディ#8478
Instagram: @_yesturdei_
Steam friend code: 311977438

also a massive thank you to @Almaas for teaching me how to make custom models and props for source sdk ~^^~
and thank you to @Waldo @Assassin and @Squidski  ❤️

Please keep giving me feedback as it really helps and I appreciate it a lot ❤️  I know there's not a lot of change recently but hopefully within the next few days I'll have more changes to show ~^^~

Edited by イェスタディ

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