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[CS:GO] Exotic Places Contest TOP 4 WINNERS

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I was a judge in a map contest for Forgehub.com along with three others, not nearly as high a prize pool mapcore has but the barrier to entree was also alot lower due to the tool being installed with the game (halo 5) so that made up for it. Anyways, we made all of our scores across all categories public, as well as a short summery of our thoughts on each. All the judges agreed to be transparent before hand and on top of that, if anybody wanted to know more they could ask any one of us and we would walk and talk with them on their map.  

 

Why is this valuable? 2 main reasons, accountability and growth. Being a "judge" implies that you have some merit in the eyes of your peers to look at another map and determine it's quality. Scores are NOT arbitrary but instead are reflections of an individuals thoughts and conclusions. Conclusions which could very well be fallacious, and could be objectively identified as such if they are held accountable for those scores by giving reasons. The words that come out of your mouth are similar to mathematical statements, they can be tested. However because we are all flawed humans and because we are not all on equal footing when it comes to education on critical thinking or the laws of logic, yes you will get different scores and conclutions, but some will most definitely be more justified than others.

 

I rated this map x/x because i feels too hard to contest x bomb site or x lane

Vs

I rated this map x/x because the enemy team has too many corners to hide in as I round this corner which forces me to make too broad an assumption which leaves me at WORST immobilized by the risk that comes with going through or at BEST getting lucky by guessing the correct corner. Leaving encounters up to luck undermines the competitive nature of the game and is therefore inferior

 

 

...one of those is very obviously better feedback, and i'd even say it's an objective truth that encounters should not come down to luck. Thats why people love CS gunplay to begin with, the consistency and control.

By making judges and their reasons transparent, even if the results are shown after the contest, you will be able to weed out the weak ones and keep them from attaining authoritative positions in the future. And just the fact that they know they will have to be transparent will put pressure on them to make sure they aren't careless on any one map they may be unenthusiastic about from the start for whatever reason

This brings me to my final point, good feedback leads to growth in the community. And i mean REAL growth. Finding areas where you can improve is invaluable information, and when it comes to a contest where judges are already playing your maps and JUDGING THEM, feedback should be mandatory 

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Good points brougth up by @Soldat Du Christ 

Congrats on the Halo 5 contest and setting an example! However, doing what you suggest would imply more time and effort, especially from the guest judges. Who would want to put in more time than necessary? Imagine having to find a replacement for, I don't know - Warowl.

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12 hours ago, Radu said:

Good points brougth up by @Soldat Du Christ 

Congrats on the Halo 5 contest and setting an example! However, doing what you suggest would imply more time and effort, especially from the guest judges. Who would want to put in more time than necessary? Imagine having to find a replacement for, I don't know - Warowl.

That's also a good point, beggars can't be choosers right? I've seen War owls content and i think he is more credible than others when it comes to looking at maps objectively. Losing him would be a loss, i don't know about the other judges.

 

I mainly brought this up after going through the thread and saw people being condemned for making the very reasonable request for feedback. And was someone actually banned for making arguments across the forum? Has he ever actually said anything rude to individuals on a personal level? Or was he just being a critic? I don't know how you guys do things here, but my experience here is that the culture is not balanced. There is a healthy amount of positivity and support for others, which is good. But you also need to welcome and even encourage a healthy amount of debate, else the community and therefore their content become stagnant and never grow

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One user, @Tynnyri, was banned for flooding a lot of map threads with criticism aimed at proving how much better his map was than any others. If a map had good visuals he would call the layout unoriginal, if it had an original layout he would say the visuals were poorly made and not deserving of praise. He never gave positive or even neutral feedback, and when someone pointed out his criticism was wrong or gave him feedback he would reply dismissing that person. For two months it was hard to post because you knew your thread would be flooded with pointless argument. I think a lot of people saw him as a troll, since his replies would come in within minutes. He clearly was just sitting on the site waiting to argue rather than interpreting any of the criticism that was made against OR by him. I think people debating on the forum is great, but @Tynnyri just made a lot of people be toxic towards each other.

On the map feedback side: I think that the core mapcore judges should be required to release their feedback publicly rather than to personal request. I understand that guest judges have other occupations, but the main judges are part of the community and should be invested in helping it grow. The 2018 csmapmakers wingman contest did this for every map, and helped me develop my knowledge as a mapper a lot.

Edited by DMU222

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22 hours ago, Soldat Du Christ said:

I rated this map x/x because i feels too hard to contest x bomb site or x lane

Vs

I rated this map x/x because the enemy team has too many corners to hide in as I round this corner which forces me to make too broad an assumption which leaves me at WORST immobilized by the risk that comes with going through or at BEST getting lucky by guessing the correct corner. Leaving encounters up to luck undermines the competitive nature of the game and is therefore inferior

Obviously I would want as much feedback as possible too, but just want to point out that some people might consider the first option already a motivation (which objectively it is compared to "7/10"). There's also the problem that if you were to spend those many words (as in example #2) for every parameter of every map... it would be such an exhausting task that first few maps might get better votes/comments and the others get some bias just because the judge has had enough. Having little friction in the process I think ensures more honest scores.

That being said, maybe there could be something in between like detail the votes for the last stage of the contest, top 3 or top 10. I would assume people have to take some notes anyway... but it's hard, the organisers managed to involve prominent people in the CSGO Pro scene, I mean apart from Warowl they are all casters and commentators in the top tournaments.

1 hour ago, DMU222 said:

One user, @Tynnyri was banned

ah lol! I thought he just got bored of posting and getting pushback anything he said. Hadn't seen the forum that bitter since... maybe forever.

Edited by blackdog

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Transparency and pressure from the community for the judge to be objective and not come to conclusions based off of their fleeting emotions is what gives us the most accurate scores. BUT i understand not every judge wants to take it seriously and would rather coast through the contest. Oh well, it is what it is, not like they are getting paid

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About Tynnyri. He is angry about mapcore like others. Yes there are more who are angry. Not me. Why? Because they can not understand why their map were placed so badly. If they would have received their score and the right feedback they would have not gone mad. Tynnyri gave Feedback and a few things he said sounded, you know like someone who is angry. A few points seemed not valid but some made sense. If you ever felt mistreated you might understand that your actings can easily go the bad way.

And maybe a few believe mapcore, the judges have to hide something. You know, because the scores are hidden. Not good. Not at all. Even when nothing else as the scores are hidden it gives it something suspicious. And this can make people much more angry.

Edited by Ringel

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1 hour ago, Ringel said:

About Tynnyri. He is angry about mapcore like others. Yes there are more who are angry. Not me. Why? Because they can not understand why their map were placed so badly. If they would have received their score and the right feedback they would have not gone mad. Tynnyri gave Feedback and a few things he said sounded, you know like someone who is angry. A few points seemed not valid but some made sense. If you ever felt mistreated you might understand that your actings can easily go the bad way.

And maybe a few believe mapcore, the judges have to hide something. You know, because the scores are hidden. Not good. Not at all. Even when nothing else as the scores are hidden it gives it something suspicious. And this can make people much more angry.

he just has full blown dunning-Kruger. He had a review of his map and it was so tactically lacking it became bland to play within half a game. His default position is angry and never tried to get his maps tested etc.

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His map got tested last month and he wrote "Well the criticism was good, the problem wasn't the amount of paths itself but how little variation they allow.".

He also gave good feedback to my map. Edit[ Now it is also his map, I am the developer and he gives feedback and makes playtests.] So he is clearly not incompetent. He is not perfect, but who is? Sometimes people are better in telling what to do than to do it themselves.

Edited by Ringel

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Truth be told, and with all respect to all the judges, but my opinion is that it's too late at this point. Some valuable feedback could have been given for each map specifically, and it could have boosted some mappers' inspiration to continue. But months after the final declaration of the winners seems futile now. Sure, it could be informative to some extent, but I'm certain that a lot of mappers have moved on to other projects or other stuff instead. They might not even notice if a reply is being made in their thread. Good suggestion, but too late 😐

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16 hours ago, JorisCeoen said:

Truth be told, and with all respect to all the judges, but my opinion is that it's too late at this point. Some valuable feedback could have been given for each map specifically, and it could have boosted some mappers' inspiration to continue. But months after the final declaration of the winners seems futile now. Sure, it could be informative to some extent, but I'm certain that a lot of mappers have moved on to other projects or other stuff instead. They might not even notice if a reply is being made in their thread. Good suggestion, but too late 😐

mapcore still runs playtests! :D in terms of drive 5vs5 mapping is becoming more and more of a thankless task - with valve's changes to how often they accept community maps (probably because how little the community care...) and the increasing dev time to be top of the pile I can see why so many are moving on.

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