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[CS:GO] Exotic Places Contest TOP 4 WINNERS

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@NikiOo There is a lot to respond to, and you have some good points. What I will part with is that I am entirely sure there are non-clover maps that could be created and widely accepted by the community. No, not as a novelty or something built for the hell of it, but for different and cohesive gameplay. I thought Junction was a really well done alternative layout, much better than nuke which I have played MANY games of. Valve is the culprit?

 

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On 4/2/2020 at 2:54 AM, Interfearance said:

@NikiOo There is a lot to respond to, and you have some good points. What I will part with is that I am entirely sure there are non-clover maps that could be created and widely accepted by the community. No, not as a novelty or something built for the hell of it, but for different and cohesive gameplay. I thought Junction was a really well done alternative layout, much better than nuke which I have played MANY games of. Valve is the culprit?

You are exactly right. Junction was awesome map and there's no good reason why it wasn't added to the game. But please also realize that Valve doesn't decide the maps accepted to the game anymore like they used to. Now they seem to purely accept Mapcore contest winners or maps from famous mappers.

The only way you can get maps like Junction into the game is to focus on getting them at the top spot in the next Mapcore contest, or get huge community reaction likes of a "new map from the maker of [popular map here]".

Sadly only few hand-picked judges in this third-party website decide what maps get the fabled top spot. This means nobody but them control what maps get accepted to the game. Effectively nobody else in the playerbase has any power to even slightly influence what maps get accepted to the game.

So no, if a map you like doesn't get accepted, it really is not the fault of Valve.

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14 minutes ago, Passerby97 said:

You are exactly right. Junction was awesome map and there's no good reason why it wasn't added to the game. But please also realize that Valve doesn't decide the maps accepted to the game anymore like they used to. Now they seem to purely accept Mapcore contest winners or maps from famous mappers.

The only way you can get maps like Junction into the game is to focus on getting them at the top spot in the next Mapcore contest, or get huge community reaction likes of a "new map from the maker of [popular map here]".

Sadly only few hand-picked judges in this third-party website decide what maps get the fabled top spot. This means nobody but them control what maps get accepted to the game. Effectively nobody else in the playerbase has any power to even slightly influence what maps get accepted to the game.

So no, if a map you like doesn't get accepted, it really is not the fault of Valve.

You are so wrong...

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Just now, Passerby97 said:

Can you elaborate? Hasn't Valve added exclusively Mapcore contest top maps lately, with the exception of Jungle for Dangerzone?

Of course I can.

- Biome and Sub-zero added on 9.10.2018

- Season and Abbey added on 24.01.2019

- Workout and Ruby added on 25.04.2019

- Seaside and Breach added on 31.07.2019

- Jungle and Studio added on 18.11.2019

- Anubis and Chlorine added on 1.04.2020

Majority maps added by valve were not a part of mapcore contest. And even if they were. Its obvious they have the highest quality out there so it is a good decision to add them.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Lizard said:

Of course I can.

- Biome and Sub-zero added on 9.10.2018

- Season and Abbey added on 24.01.2019

- Workout and Ruby added on 25.04.2019

- Seaside and Breach added on 31.07.2019

- Jungle and Studio added on 18.11.2019

- Anubis and Chlorine added on 1.04.2020

Majority maps added by valve were not a part of mapcore contest. And even if they were. Its obvious they have the highest quality out there so it is a good decision to add them.

I appreciate the well-thought out response.

Season, Workout and Seaside were returning maps. Can't really count them in as accepted maps, they were accepted long before this trend unearthed itself.

Sub-Zero and Season had huge community hype surrounding them because of their creator, FMPone. I addressed that already in my original post.

Ruby and Breach were not part of a mapcore contest, true. But they have been both independently acknowledged by Mapcore's own Twitter account. That isn't true of maps like Jungle, which is a casual map. For context, Mapcore for what I could find, has never individually acknowledged even contest-winning maps.

In short, I still do believe my point stands. Any recent map added competitively into CS by Valve has been directly through the influence of the top of Mapcore.

55 minutes ago, Lizard said:

Majority maps added by valve were not a part of mapcore contest.

From the listed competitive maps, when not counting maps added back from past operations, Mapcore contest winners would be 5 out of 8. That's a majority.
 

Edited by Passerby97

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13 minutes ago, Vaya said:

son...junction is a mapcore map...

 

Made by TheHorseStrangler and some other dudes.
He also contributed to Studio which made it in the game and BlackGold if I am not wrong?
Anyway it doesnt matter if a map has been part of the mapping contest or not or if it is made by a 'known' mapper. 
If it is a high quality map, Valve will look into it and when they enjoy it and see potentiol in it they will throw it out there in the wild for the community to give it a go.

I think its cool to try out new ideas, but it just takes alot more time, playtests & itterations to make it work and be acknowledged by the players.
Not really a smart thing for a contest where you always run out short on time no matter what you do. 
And also, this game has been developed over many years and there are LD aspects to it you need to keep in mind, if you differ from those guidelines, you probally get in trouble with your design. 
This doesn't mean you can't be creative or do crazy stuff, just dont go overboard I would say... 

Just like Nikio is saying.. dont design a horror game for a playerbase expecting a fluffy kids game.. :D
 

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2 hours ago, Passerby97 said:

Junction was awesome map and there's no good reason why it wasn't added to the game. But please also realize that Valve doesn't decide the maps accepted to the game anymore like they used to. Now they seem to purely accept Mapcore contest winners or maps from famous mappers.

I think they didn't add it to the game because de_junction was never finished. Can't talk about gameplay, because I never really played it.

But yes, the visuals are awesome at some spots, but some areas need a lot of additional work imo.

I don't know why, but it seems like the creators abandoned this map (?)

 

The fact that Valve only picks Mapcore maps is because pretty much every good CS:GO mapper is at Mapcore.

Valve also tests every candidate internally, that's why some awesome looking maps sometimes don't get added (because they are not fun, completely imbalanced, exploitable, not optimized (low fps) or whatever).

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2 hours ago, Radix said:

The fact that Valve only picks Mapcore maps is because pretty much every good CS:GO mapper is at Mapcore.

Valve also tests every candidate internally, that's why some awesome looking maps sometimes don't get added (because they are not fun, completely imbalanced, exploitable, not optimized (low fps) or whatever).

I respect that you took time to write this, but this is not really a response to anything I said.

Yes, maps that are sent to Mapcore get accepted because most maps get sent to mapcore. But maps that Mapcore doesn't acknowledge aren't accepted to CS.

Anubis has 50-100 fps lag spikes on medium rigs. Ruby and Breach got completely remade midway through their in-game rotations. Not every map can be perfect when first accepted into the game, and that clearly does not stop them from being accepted.

What clearly does, is if Mapcore is the one who acknowledges the maps. There's nothing wrong with that. My point this entire time has been that if you want to change what competitive maps get accepted into the game, you want to get a top position in mapcore and get to be a judge in a competition, there's no reason to ruffle Valve's feathers about that.
 

Edited by Passerby97

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4 hours ago, Passerby97 said:

I respect that you took time to write this, but this is not really a response to anything I said.

Oh, then I probably just got you wrong. Sorry.

Quote

But maps that Mapcore doesn't acknowledge aren't accepted to CS.

Which maps do you think of particularly that were good but not added because of not being "acknowledged" by Mapcore?

Yes, there are a couple of maps that looked interesting but never got added (Grind, Import, Sanchez, Waterfall, Iris, ...). (Just talking about the visuals, not layout, because that's obviously Valve's first exclusion criterion)

But maybe there are different reasons. As I already said, they might just have failed when tested by Valve...

Or maybe there were just other maps that were better at the same time.

After all there are only a few mappers that reach the high requirements for the visuals. And these guys try to finish their maps by the end of a contest. Because of the fame/extra money I guess. So it's natural that most "good" maps are contest winners in the end.

Quote

Anubis has 50-100 fps lag spikes on medium rigs

I agree. Anubis looks awesome, but it's not well optimized yet. (Of course not! Because that's one of the last things you do when you make a map)

At it's current state it should not have been added to the game yet imo. It will surely run a lot better in a few weeks...

Quote

Ruby and Breach got completely remade midway through their in-game rotations. Not every map can be perfect when first accepted into the game, and that clearly does not stop them from being accepted.

Yes. But mostly gameplay changes. These maps looked very polished and played well already when they were added. The authors just wanted to improve gameplay based on player feedback imo.

What I said about Junction was that it's currently way to unpolished to be added. (Flickering props, nodraw surfaces, temporary assets, ...). Don't get me wrong. I like the map. But 80% finished is not enough.

 

After all you remind me of a guy called "Tynnyri". Just more polite. ūü§ĒūüėÖ

Edited by Radix

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What I wonder about is wheter valve does communicate with the map creators of potential maps and give feedback?

10 hours ago, Radix said:

I think they didn't add it to the game because de_junction was never finished. ..

..I don't know why, but it seems like the creators abandoned this map (?)..

..Valve also tests every candidate internally, that's why some awesome looking maps sometimes don't get added (because they are not fun, completely imbalanced, exploitable, not optimized (low fps) or whatever).

If they would give feedback to the creators of de_junction they would probably work on the map again and do the needed changes. True unadorned feedback is the most important for creators.

Even the best needs help and ideas from others. The guy who made dust 2 didn't knew where to place the spawns or where the right place would be. Sounds ridiculous right? Because you might think that should be very clearly.  But very often the obvious to you is not the obvious to someone else. Also if you work on a project for a longer time you become blind to some obvious things. When I abandon a project and come back to it after some time I immediately spot flaws I could not see in the past.

Edited by Ringel

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yes valve give feedback once you are on their radar. I know horse strangler has spoken to valve about junction too. He's not working on it anymore (or cs for that matter I'm pretty sure)

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