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Getting Valve to add a community map to the tournament pool is like asking your wife to have a kid after you've been married for 30 years. That ship has already sailed long ago. By this point even adoption isn't an option. If anyone was interested in playing new maps, they're either on Mapcore, or they're already playing other games. I bet for most people CSGO is just that old game which you can boot up at any time, always expecting the same thing, and always getting the same thing. The most recent update with the operators skins and the battle royale mode tells me that this game is just a cash cow for Valve. It's about time that cow get slaughtered. And not like in a nice and ethical farm, but in one of those farms from those vegan documentaries. The game is entering menopause already and this is our last bitch effort to give birth to something new.

Also, Imagine all 6 tournament maps getting replaced by community maps. It wouldn't be a Valve game anymore. Why do you think they stopped adding maps in operations? Cause they don't want their profits going to some random community members. Remember what happened to that doctor who tried to introduce new treating methods to the hospital? He got fired! And then he died! In a car accident. So don't be him. Don't waste your talents. No one will remember you.

 

Or I'm probably just butthurt because I suck at the game and dont play it anymore ... anyways, yeah Mutiny is really awesome. I remember playing it almost a year ago in it's earlier stages when it was still a greybox and I just now recognized where I remember it from. It's changed (shrinked) quite a lot.

Edited by NikiOo

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On 3/23/2020 at 8:17 PM, judas said:

Ofc the do know how a map should be built, what works, what does not work. Who do the mappers build the maps for? for public servers only?

A pro player would need a huge amount of time to learn how to create a high quality csgo map on his own. Best would be to do a cooperation with an experienced mapper. I currently create a new wingman map and would love to work with a pro or very experienced player. The comp mode was always too time consuming for me. Hence I played it very rarely. I always hoped valve would add a comp mode with less rounds. I can only speak for myself, but thats why most of my maps ended up as casual maps at first. My map de_ocity was supposed to be a comp map, but I needed two more releases until it became more competitive viable. The last version de_urbany does a good job. But because it "only" looks good it received almost no attention.

 

On 3/23/2020 at 10:36 PM, NikiOo said:

I bet for most people CSGO is just that old game which you can boot up at any time, always expecting the same thing, and always getting the same thing. The most recent update with the operators skins and the battle royale mode tells me that this game is just a cash cow for Valve.

CSGO has more players than ever. Plenty of them are new and would love to play more maps. They are not "old" and eager to learn something new. This would be a chance for Valve to implement new interesting maps.

But sadly the most mappers do the same layout patterns again and again, because they also became "old". "Never change a runing system" leads to death at some point. In my oppinion cgso reached this point already. Many core players play the game without having real fun anymore. Some get more frustrated by the game than having fun. But because they get the good feelings from time to time and because they got used to the game they always come back. They are trapped to this game. Like old people plenty of them don't be open to something new that don't fit into their old fashion thinking.  => progress stopped Edit: It is not solely thje fault of Valve, it is because of the old players and the focus of Valve making content for them instead of developing the whole game (hostage mode, wingmand, etc.) further. But now it got enough new players to refresh this game.

Edited by Ringel

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19 hours ago, judas said:

Laugh all you want lizard, only because i didnt mention your map. It looks awsome, cant see how it would even stand a chance in gameplay against those map i mentioned. But hey what do i know, i only played cs since 1.3 and competed/played with top players in 1.6. Shame on me!

Oh... I used the laugh emoticon because of this sentence "And where is the pro players who actually knows a thing or two about how a map should be built?" just found it funny and I'm sorry if it hurt your feeling.

Also if you  would be that kind to use your GREAT experience as a 1.3 player and point out some problems on my  map? I always strive to make my maps better.

Edited by Lizard

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5 hours ago, Vaya said:

pro players don't know fuck all, they learn what they are given. Do you think a map like inferno or train would survive modern standards

That's a good point. It is also sad, because they are much more interesting than what does survive today, and they obviously work. 

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4 hours ago, Interfearance said:

That's a good point. It is also sad, because they are much more interesting than what does survive today, and they obviously work. 

the valve system for paying community creatives has ironically made a lot of people scared to get 'too creative' levels are beautiful but the gameplay is often on the bland side of safe in my opinion.

YES LIZARD I REMEMBER THE FAN

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2 hours ago, Vaya said:

the valve system for paying community creatives has ironically made a lot of people scared to get 'too creative' levels are beautiful but the gameplay is often on the bland side of safe in my opinion.

YES LIZARD I REMEMBER THE FAN

 

Way back when CSGO first came out people really wanted new maps. They wernt too responsive to Valves attempts, but they seemed to love Operation maps. 7 years later and the demographics have changed, people dont want new maps, they want less of the maps they already have. Anytime people or pro players talk about what new maps they want its always "Aztec, Tuscan, Mill, Santorini, Season, Forge, Ruska, Sub-Zero" All maps that are either from the 1.6 glory days or were in CSGO at some point. Very rarely if every do you hear talk of adding actually new maps.

When Valve added Vertigo to the pro pool, that map had been in the game for 2 months and was being actively updated and there was 7 months until the next major, yet some how this was too big of a shift, pros somehow couldnt learn a new map in 7 months. The very idea of a map they had never set foot on being in the pro scene shook its very foundation. It seems so much of pro play in this era is less about aim and on the fly tactics and more about how to hold an angle most effectively and knowing every single possible grenade throw. On Vertigo where they knew little, some of the very best teams faultered because of how much they relied on grenade line ups and knowing common angles.

To me it seems there just isnt a market for actual new maps, the ones they do add are popular for about 2 weeks, maybe 3 if its really good. then players just go back to the active duty maps. Prior to scrimmage this allowed for smurfs, derankers, and vertiglobals to dominate these maps. Which was the exact problem Valve was experiencing with Militia, Italy, Assault, Aztec, Dust1 and Vertigo. The same reason why they were removed from comp.

I would like to believe Valve likes community maps, but they just dont show it anymore. There are big and obvious problems facing community maps, but Valve does nothing to curve it. If they dont care enough to stop the problems why are they adding maps in the first place, seems like a money sink if the playerbase as a whole isnt playing them. To me the solution has always been obvious enough. Players should punished for overplaying 1 or a small group of maps and should be rewarded for trying new ones. The first step would be reward players less XP for playing the same map over and over, while give them more for playing a new map. The more drastic one would be to have it effect elo. If you only play dust2, losses will retract more elo and wins will reward less, if you try Breach for the first time, you wont lose much ELO from losing but you can gain a lot by winning. This would be a controversial change and would be yet another thing the community would dislike about comp.

But again, what is the point of adding community maps and paying their creators when Valve doesnt seem to get much value out of doing so. Why not take more drastic measures if community maps are so important.

All of this not even taking in to account most of the community and almost all of the pro scene think community maps are untested and focused more on visuals then gameplay (Which we know is not true, but they dont). I find it funny in nearly every example of a pro player trying to design a new map layout it ends up just being Mirage, yet somehow their built as being the only ones who know anything about map design.

Being that mapcore seems to have members from every game studio, ive always wondered why we dont see at least 1 Valve artist on here, I get valve is a closed book but it just seems unfortunate. In the rare event we get an interview with the devs is always the same god awful questions about competitive rankings and the pro scene and when will source 2 be added, when will old gun be added. Never about there feelings on community content, why they choose to do things the way they do.

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Honestly, 'weird' maps like Nuke or Inferno are still four square in a sense. If you untangle the player paths and spread them out, the same exact layout is powering every single map currently in the game. What makes these maps unique is the way they tangle/reposition each path, and the arena design of combat spaces.

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I believe community maps would have a much higher acceptance in wingman and all the other casual modes. Maybe Valve should take more care of them. As I started to play csgo I only played the casual modes for a few hundred hours. It was a good and fun way for me to practise my aim and learn all the different spray patterns. And I wished there would have been more maps.

Wingman also needs more maps which are actually designed for it. And not just cut of parts from 5v5 maps.

Edited by Ringel

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On 3/25/2020 at 12:11 AM, DMU222 said:

Honestly, 'weird' maps like Nuke or Inferno are still four square in a sense. If you untangle the player paths and spread them out, the same exact layout is powering every single map currently in the game. What makes these maps unique is the way they tangle/reposition each path, and the arena design of combat spaces.

Inferno doesn't have a middle route that has connectors to both bombsites. I am not sure if you can call it four square. Isn't it more like a single triangle?
 

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 It is amaizing how people are developing all kind of theories from arbitrary things. At the time that it was created there were no such kind of theories. 4,5,7squares,triangles,or whatever. It was about what the players are prefering, about what a map could offer to make them come again and play it. 

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On 3/24/2020 at 4:51 PM, Interfearance said:

That's a good point. It is also sad, because they are much more interesting than what does survive today, and they obviously work. 

The Bible also works, doesn't it? Far better than it would have if it was released today. It was released in the peak of interest and when there wasn't much competition. That's not to say the literary and social theory of religion hasn't evolved since then.

Back in the day there were no dating apps and no social media, so you just had to date people in your local community. There was far less choice, but that doesn't mean people were less happy.

I feel like there's always going to be a misalignment between the interests of mappers and the interests of players. You gotta think about this like a drug dealer - you must know your audience, know what they're currently on and what kind of nerve it's scratching. You need to make them feel comfortable and safe in changing over to the new drug and convince them that it is a sufficient substitute. If you're a biochemist making designer drugs, you might take pride in making the *best* drug (some drug that stimulates your brain and makes you smarter, or some drug that turns you into a warewolf), but if you want to make big buck off of that drug, you gotta streamline it - you gotta make it easy to consume, make it scentless so police dogs can't track it, etc. That's why maps that stick to standard 4 square layout (flat map with few paths) are more accessible. Mappers think like mappers, players think like players. That drug which turns you into a werewolf might get a lot of praise from your fellow mappers, but it's not gonna be the new tobacco.

Here's another analogy: There are games that liked by many - like Super Mario, and there are games that are loved by few, like Prison Architect for example. Imagine booting up Flappy Bird on your computer (Don't know why you would play flappy bird on your computer, but what do I know. You're the weird one, not me), and then you see a small button below Play that says "New Mode", so you press it and suddenly it boots up Dark Souls! You're not in the mood for Dark Souls, you're in the mood for Flappy Bird. It's 2 AM and you're lying in bed with your laptop. Hell, you don't even have a mouse.

I'm probably overthinking this and layouts may well be a minor factor in getting players to play new maps. It may be the way the areas are designed, or the way the art is put together that makes something tick in peoples brains so they think to themselves, "ah this feels familiar, this feel like those other 5 maps I've played for hundreds of hours".

I personally like making maps with crazy layout constrains like De_Graveyard, driven by some grand concept, because I know other mappers will appreciate the effort it takes to make such a layout work, and because some people are just gonna be fascinated by the all-round coolness of having a map set on a ship, or in a radio tower, or a large open train-yard, or around a giant fucking statue.

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