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2 hours ago, blackdog said:

What you mean by that, and does it refer to any country in particular? Reading this makes sense to me only where hospitals are private, and where I lived (Italy, UK) hospitals are run by the government anyway.

I'm talking about forcing people to vaccinate, where you litteraly get called in a camp and get vaccinated by a mix of meds and military medics, the whole thing making it impossible to bypass it. Pure speculation of course, but i'm wondering wether or not some govs will have the balls to push it as far as that.

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Hey long time Mapcorians...I come back here regularly to read...much less regularly to post.  I think now warrants a post: 1) I have several people in my circle who have had this.  (a) My long ti

She's doing better thanks. First couple of days didn't know which way it was gonna go but it settled into mild symptoms which is basically the worst case of flu you'll ever get. To say I was stressed

I took some pictures here in Lyon when I went to buy some stuff...it's really really a strange thing to live with and in the same time it feels good. You can hear birds and no cars, you breathe...yeah

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13 minutes ago, RaVaGe said:

I'm talking about forcing people to vaccinate, where you litteraly get called in a camp and get vaccinated by a mix of meds and military medics, the whole thing making it impossible to bypass it. Pure speculation of course, but i'm wondering wether or not some govs will have the balls to push it as far as that.

Some governments would definitely have the balls to push it that far, the way China dealt with the virus in the beginning wasn't very diferent. They had the army patrolling the streets, they installed speakers on the sidewalks broadcasting messages about mandatory quarantine, drones flying around making sure the streets are empty, etc. It was very draconian.

Now... you can't argue with the fact that it seems to have worked, assuming you trust the data they put out, right?

If they installed speakers telling people what to do anywhere in the US, a shotgun would pop it to smithereens in minutes.

We'll see what will happen, if you ask me, I can see some private companies here in the US having mandatory covid immunization for their employees. It's not that farfetched, most schools out here both private and public need to have proof of vaccination for you to put your kids in them, so it happens already. 

The problem with that comparison is that those vaccines you give your kids have been around for decades, this vaccine is brand new. Am I really to trust it based on blind faith? It's a hard sell.

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On 12/9/2020 at 4:16 AM, Buddy said:

Let me guess, 500 years of short term thinking adds up to a long term disaster?

 

SHOCKER

Not exactly. The premise is that before there was even a United States, the colonists, then settlers before them, brought a way of magical thinking that has carried on to the present day. Cults? Check. Conspiracy theories as to why things are the way they are? Check. Assumption of settlers/colonists/Americans' divine right to commit mass genocide and slavery? Check. The communists have taken over the post WWII government? Check. Pizzagate? Check. Windmills give you cancer? Check. Moon landing was fake? Check. Coronavirus is a liberal hoax and not real it's all fake? Check. Bush was behind 911? Check. Trump actually won the 2020 election in a landslide? Check.

Fantasyland

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37 minutes ago, Izuno said:

Not exactly. The premise is that before there was even a United States, the colonists, then settlers before them, brought a way of magical thinking that has carried on to the present day. Cults? Check. Conspiracy theories as to why things are the way they are? Check. Assumption of settlers/colonists/Americans' divine right to commit mass genocide and slavery? Check. The communists have taken over the post WWII government? Check. Pizzagate? Check. Windmills give you cancer? Check. Moon landing was fake? Check. Coronavirus is a liberal hoax and not real it's all fake? Check. Bush was behind 911? Check. Trump actually won the 2020 election in a landslide? Check.

Fantasyland

Those god damn European colonists, bringing with them society, free market, medicine, sanitation, education and infrastructure....! :fist:

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11 minutes ago, ┌HP┘ said:

Those god damn European colonists, bringing with them society, free market, medicine, sanitation, education and infrastructure....! :fist:

No denying that part either...and they aren't mutually exclusive. And while all those things are great, a lot of what is holding those things back from reaching their full potential is the fantasyland component of our political system.

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40 minutes ago, Izuno said:

No denying that part either...and they aren't mutually exclusive. And while all those things are great, a lot of what is holding those things back from reaching their full potential is the fantasyland component of our political system.

No argument from me there. Problem is exacerbated by the gigantic lack of dialogue, I'm seeing that everywhere including in our own circles. The polarization is palpable.

We're not going to get out of this until we bring back some old fashioned "agree to disagree", in my view.

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34 minutes ago, ┌HP┘ said:

No argument from me there. Problem is exacerbated by the gigantic lack of dialogue, I'm seeing that everywhere including in our own circles. The polarization is palpable.

We're not going to get out of this until we bring back some old fashioned "agree to disagree", in my view.

Yeah a giant shit sandwich.

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3 hours ago, RaVaGe said:

I'm talking about forcing people to vaccinate, where you litteraly get called in a camp and get vaccinated by a mix of meds and military medics, the whole thing making it impossible to bypass it. Pure speculation of course, but i'm wondering wether or not some govs will have the balls to push it as far as that.

Is there much of a difference forcing people by telling them to line up, versus denying people rights if you don’t get the vaccine?

I think I’d actually prefer the first option, the false choice is even more disgusting.

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44 minutes ago, blackdog said:

Is there much of a difference forcing people by telling them to line up, versus denying people rights if you don’t get the vaccine?

I think I’d actually prefer the first option, the false choice is even more disgusting.

At least the second one leaves room for you to get the fuck out.

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There seems to be some uncertainty among certain people regarding how safe the vaccines are given how comparatively fast they were developed. Just wanted to share this post I came across the other day to respond to that.

 

Quote

Here is info from a Phd friend of mine to help you.

 

The waits for normal non-urgent vaccines are surrounded by reasons why speeding them up is fine...

 

1. ⁠The Clinical trials can be sped up for two reasons; the global govt's are investing a huge amount of money to make doses so you can go directly through the phases of those clinical trials (normally you'd not have that kind of money, so it takes way longer) in a much speedier way.

2. ⁠In the middle of a pandemic it's SUPER easy to rapidly enroll patients in large quantities to measure infection rates in tens of thousands of people, and this allows them to get their efficacy endpoints in months VS years. Normally getting patients is more waiting and produces longer timelines.

3. ⁠For safety, they already know what adverse events to look out for; inflammatory reactions, or antibody-dependent enhancement...those are real risks, but they are captured in the real world clinical trials.

 

By definition, every approved vaccine has a benefit to risk ratio. This doesn't mean the risks are zero, so in the very rare cases where the risks happen, like the anaphylaxes in 1/1,000,000 kids in prior vaccines, those super rare cases are compensated and they certainly don't negate the positive results for the vast majority of everyone else.

 

TL;DR: Vaccines don't require crazy long term research as long as the studies are big enough and pumped full of enough money to make the ratios for efficacy endpoints massive and unequivocal. Side effects will be felt acutely and shortly after taking the vaccine...as such, they will have had 1-1.5 years with tens of thousands of subjects, and there have been very few and very rare cases of side effects. They are speeding up the money and waiting for people portions...not the science portion.

 

There are approx three different vaccines that have released interim phase three trial results  currently. To create a vaccine you need some way of delivering the information on the disease to the body and we have lots of different tried and tested approaches for this. So you have the technology, then all you need is the information on the disease. The genetic sequence of the virus was analysed very early in the pandemic and so this enabled vaccine development to gets started.  Lessons had also been learnt from sars which is very similar to the virus that causes COVID 19.

For all the vaccines on trial

Phase 1/2 of trials ran cocurrently- these assess safety and whether there is measurable immune responses. The Phase three trial had accelerated recruitment across countries because people interested and countries cooperated together. It can take years to recruit the numbers we have seen in the phase three trials that take in a varied population in order to see effectiveness, It can also take time to get the funds for all this. So the combination of established platforms and international coopertaion and funding has really fast tracked the vaccines without cutting corners around safety or efficacy.  That is why we are in such a good place now for vaccine development.

***

The regulatory authorities will never pass a vaccine that is unsafe. Other than clean water, vaccines have saved more lives than any other medicine globally. It has gone quicker because everyone has worked together and focused entirely on this virus. Also remember you are given the template for bits of the virus or a strain that cannot replicate in humans. The side effects of COVID are awful and certain, the side effects with the vaccine are, to date much milder.

 

Hope this helps you and eases and concerns you might have.

 

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Also remember you are given the template for bits of the virus or a strain that cannot replicate in humans.

 I'm no "pHD" like your friend, but that is not what I understood how this vaccine works.

Quote

mRNA vaccines are a new type of vaccine to protect against infectious diseases. To trigger an immune response, many vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Not mRNA vaccines. Instead, they teach our cells how to make a protein—or even just a piece of a protein—that triggers an immune response inside our bodies. 

You are basically injecting yourself a piece of code that tells your body to produce specific proteins, and the long term effects are not known at this point. I'm definitely not an early adopter of this  :lol: :lol:

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3 hours ago, ┌HP┘ said:

At least the second one leaves room for you to get the fuck out.

Not really, considering all western and peer countries seem to be heading into this "soft dictatorship approach".

1 hour ago, Minos said:

You are basically injecting yourself a piece of code that tells your body to produce specific proteins, and the long term effects are not known at this point. I'm definitely not an early adopter of this  :lol: :lol:

Not sure we will, I would expect they will be rolling to the highest risk people, as shown by the granny in the UK(?)

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10 hours ago, ┌HP┘ said:

Some governments would definitely have the balls to push it that far, the way China dealt with the virus in the beginning wasn't very diferent. They had the army patrolling the streets, they installed speakers on the sidewalks broadcasting messages about mandatory quarantine, drones flying around making sure the streets are empty, etc. It was very draconian.

Understatement of the year, they literally [literally] welded people's front doors shut to enforce the quarantine

10 hours ago, ┌HP┘ said:

The problem with that comparison is that those vaccines you give your kids have been around for decades, this vaccine is brand new. Am I really to trust it based on blind faith? It's a hard sell.

Pretty much that. I'll get it once they've had a year at least to prove there's no side effects, I'm in no hurry to get back to shaking hands and licking doorknobs

9 hours ago, ┌HP┘ said:

We're not going to get out of this until we bring back some old fashioned "agree to disagree", in my view.

The problem with ''agree to disagree'' is that it's basically "default to inaction". That's not a problem in and of itself - but when most political dialogue boils down to ''we want radical and sweeping changes'' VS ''uh nah lets not'', inaction favors one side, so it's no true compromise. On the other hand - compromise as it's generally applied insinuates a change is enacted, so no matter how small, the action-favoring side has 100% won out over the side favoring inaction.

Judgement of Solomon n all that . . . is it too early to start quoting bible verses?

The great illusion of political debate is that there's an assumption both sides are arguing polar options, when often rather than "left or right" it's "left or keep going straight". Action vs inaction is not a polar debate, all actions have opposites.

Maybe that's semantic, maybe it's pedantry. But I think it's a meaningful premise and I never see it discussed

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12 hours ago, ┌HP┘ said:

I'm a numbers guy, I like to read statistics, I like to look at proof and data backed facts. And even though I admit some of it is looking good, there's still a lot of room for skepticism, just today four Pfizer vaccine volunteers developed bells palsy.

"The briefing says that the frequency of Bell’s Palsy in the vaccine group is “consistent with the expected background rate in the general population”, adding there is “no clear basis upon which to conclude a causal relationship at this time”. The FDA said it would, however, recommend “surveillance” for cases of Bell’s Palsy as the vaccine is sent out to larger groups of people."

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-pfizer-health-concerns-idUSKBN28K2R6

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