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Hypothetical-Contest Rules Voting

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8 hours ago, text_fish said:

Agreed. I would love it if Mapcore ran a hostage rescue map comp to try and (re)raise the profile of the game mode.

This is something I would want to see after our next CS:GO contest. It would be fun to do in conjunction with some real update from CS:GO such as a re-evaluation of the money system when in CS game-mode.

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53 minutes ago, FMPONE said:

This is something I would want to see after our next CS:GO contest. It would be fun to do in conjunction with some real update from CS:GO such as a re-evaluation of the money system when in CS game-mode.

It's great that you're on board with the idea in theory, but I think this is one of those occasions where Valve will be lead by the community. Until they see an influx of interest in HR (which is a real possibility if 5-10 good quality community maps emerge) they're unlikely to look twice at it.

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I'm not sure about hostage rescue though. The big problem is competitive and getting pro teams to play a new game mode will be very hard for valve as most teams wont even play any maps that went made 4+ years ago. In my opinion if any maps right now have a chance to break into the competitive scene and be taken seriously it would be a bomb map so excluding them from a competition for map making would kind of suck :(.

Edited by Plexium_

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My counter-point would be that if you think you can make a competitive map good enough to get adopted by the professionals then that's a reward in itself, so why not use a $15k prize pool to encourage some talented people to think outside the box?

Of course without knowing where the $15k comes from this might all be a moot point. Maybe the source of the prize pool thinks that they can only get a return on their investment with another 20 generic defuse maps.

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Its a good point but don't you think if a hostage map is really good enough to draw valve's attention it would also beat out other defuse maps in the competition? I like your idea of trying to use the prize money to branch into other areas of the game but I think the defuse game mode is really what defines modern counter strike and if a hostage map is created that is better then the defusal maps it should win anyway. Plus even if you make a great defuse map it is very hard to get any traction and competitions like this are the only way (unless you get extremely lucky) to even have a chance at getting your map recognition and into the pro rotation. 

+adding on here: I'm not sure but would it be a good idea to have separate competitions for each game mode, split the prize pool? I don't think so... but it is an option

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10 hours ago, Plexium_ said:

don't you think if a hostage map is really good enough to draw valve's attention it would also beat out other defuse maps in the competition?

No. That's the whole point. The overwhelming obsession with competitively viable de_ maps eclipses any chance a hostage map has of getting attention from the right people. As you say, "the defuse game mode is really what defines modern counter strike", so it doesn't need any help.

At the end of the day I probably won't have time to partake meaningfully in whatever competition gets run so I certainly don't want to dash anyone's dreams of making the 3000000th Dust2 clone, but as a player I think it would be nice to see some more quality cs_ maps out there.

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If you're talking about contests in general, it'd be cool to see something like a cs_ only contest to encourage brainstorming how to make the mode more enjoyable overall.
If it's about a contest of this scale, I think limiting the mappers' choice to a specific game mode is not the right way. It'd be more fitting to see something like that in smaller jam-like contests. These could focus mostly on pre art-pass LD then.

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6 hours ago, text_fish said:

No. That's the whole point. The overwhelming obsession with competitively viable de_ maps eclipses any chance a hostage map has of getting attention from the right people. As you say, "the defuse game mode is really what defines modern counter strike", so it doesn't need any help.

At the end of the day I probably won't have time to partake meaningfully in whatever competition gets run so I certainly don't want to dash anyone's dreams of making the 3000000th Dust2 clone, but as a player I think it would be nice to see some more quality cs_ maps out there.

Good point I guess I am a little bit bias because I have never liked the hostage game mode but maybe that is just because we have never really had good hostage maps and a contest like this would help create some :) 

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I think all major contests needs to satisfy two not always compatible demands. First they need to be fair, and second they need to be organized so as to produce high quality entries. Any attempt to advance fairness will impact quality,  and vice versa.

If the contest aimed to produce the best content, then the rules would allow for everyone to get involved - including Mapcore staff, and that every map be eligible for submission. Even those submitted to previous contests, as well as remakes. The only exception to this would be maps that made the top 4 in earlier contests, and maps already featured in an operation. Team sizes would be unrestricted, and the time frame would be at least six months.This kind of "catch all" approach would likely mean a top 10 of the best community made maps in any CSGO contest to date, and possibly even a top 20 of maps deemed "operation potential".

The main issue here however, relates to fairness.

These are the things that I personally regard as being both fair and conducive to quality.

  • Mapcore staff. All staff should be allowed to participate. The mapping community is small, so barring even one staff member from entering seems counter-productive. We just need to have faith in the judging process. As an aside, I felt sorry for those barred from participation in the last contest because they were helpful enough to be staff.
  • Time frame. It takes so long to make a quality CSGO map, that I am in favor of long deadlines. It is the only way for solo-participants working on a brand new layout to compete.
  • Maps already under construction.  Unless I am mistaken, the last contest drew the line at maps that were anything more than a dev textured block out. In other words, if you added any models or textures to the map, you could not enter. The inherent problem here is that by including this kind of rule as a staple of any and all future contests, it can encourage a culture of secrecy. Mappers will hold back their arted work from the forum, through fear of violating the rules. Knowing if all maps have begun from when the contest is announced is also impossible.
  • Maps that have previously appeared in a contest. There is a lot to be said about encouraging people to continue working on their maps. So if a map appeared in a previous contest, but failed to win a prize, it could still be eligible for entry. To stop people from constantly submitting the same map over and over, perhaps a limit could be placed on the number of contests that a map can appear in.

These are the things that I personally regard as being unfair.

  • Remakes. The biggest issue with any contest is that of time. The advantages afforded in remaking a proven existing design are so numerous, it is possible to race months ahead of those creating original work. If someone was solely focused on winning, then opting to do a remake would be by far the smartest choice. For contest purposes, a remake could be defined as a map that has appeared in a previous version of any game, other than CSGO.
  • Team sizes. Team work should be encouraged, but there has to be a limit on the number of people allowed per team. Since there will likely be a lot of solo-participants, I think no more than two people per team is the fairest. Two people on a team already have a massive advantage over a solo-mapper, that when teams of three or more compete, fairness can always get called into question.

Pretty sure a lot of people will disagree with these. It is why I imagine just outlining the rules is a bit of a nightmare!

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1 hour ago, OrnateBaboon said:
  • Maps already under construction.  Unless I am mistaken, the last contest drew the line at maps that were anything more than a dev textured block out. In other words, if you added any models or textures to the map, you could not enter. The inherent problem here is that by including this kind of rule as a staple of any and all future contests, it can encourage a culture of secrecy. Mappers will hold back their arted work from the forum, through fear of violating the rules. Knowing if all maps have begun from when the contest is announced is also impossible.

This ruling was terrible in the previous contest. It read: Maps that were under creation prior to the announcement of this Contest can be entered, as long as a complete map version (layout and art) has not been released for public download. If that's not a half measure I don't know what is. Where do you draw the line and how is it fair? It was very sketchy. Imo the obvious answer is to not allow maps (a vmf) that was under construction prior to the contest. You'd have to assume most people will be honest with their submission.

Edited by grapen

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I don’t  know why there’s even a concern about staff participating. I can’t believe that anyone would question the judges integrity, in our community.

I know it’s a standard rule in any contest but I feel we know each other and this kind of scheming is not part of our community :)

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Hey all,

Thank you for this feedback. I've removed the swear word from the title because this feedback is actually great and really useful.

So the first measure that @Thrik has approved of, us changing the word "Staff" from all the site stuff. If we do future contests, I'd like to restrict participation to judges only, not to people who are just longstanding members of our community. As for the other stuff touched on in this thread, currently the votes align with the rules we already had in place last year.

 

On 11/9/2018 at 2:37 PM, text_fish said:

It's great that you're on board with the idea in theory, but I think this is one of those occasions where Valve will be lead by the community. Until they see an influx of interest in HR (which is a real possibility if 5-10 good quality community maps emerge) they're unlikely to look twice at it.

This is a smart point. 

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3 hours ago, FMPONE said:

As for the other stuff touched on in this thread, currently the votes align with the rules we already had in place last year.

Disappointed to hear that. Who’s doing the voting? Because seems to me like a majority of people in this thread wants to see fresh maps, for the spirit of competition. Makes me think the agenda here is something different entirely.

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1 minute ago, grapen said:

Disappointed to hear that. Who’s doing the voting? Because seems to me like a majority of people in this thread wants to see fresh maps, for the spirit of competition. Makes me think the agenda here is something different entirely.

Sorry but wasn't that exactly our rule set last time around? Only original maps, no remakes, no prior work? Because that's what's currently polling ahead. Just want to be clear here...

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2 minutes ago, FMPONE said:

Sorry but wasn't that exactly our rule set last time around? Only original maps, no remakes, no prior work? Because that's what's currently polling ahead. Just want to be clear here...

No the previous ruling was very ambiguous, see my reply to Ornatebaboon uo there ^. Some entries had been in production for more than six months last time.

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