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Mitch Mitchell

What is the best game to create maps for?

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Just spent the last few days tinkering with CS:GO SDK and I believe I have come to the conclusion that CS:GO is not something I want to map for, I just detest Hammer.

My reasons for this are mainly to do with the clunky interface, lack of a decent BSP tool and lack of PIE functions.

Just to frame this for you, I have spent the last 18 months using UE4 and with a five year break, UDK prior to that for roughly a year. So, I am too accustomed to additive/subtractive environments, and not pure additive designs. The amount of times I was thinking 'So let me get this straight, if I want to move that window/door at the blocking stage, I have to redesign the entire wall??? - Why can't I just punch a window/door shape into the wall???'

I've read comments from people over the years talking about how awesome they find it, but kept being reminded about the times I tried to map from about 2005 onwards with Hammer and being continually frustrated with it. The lack of workarounds is also a barrier for me, where there does not (on the surface) appear to be any form of geometric 'toying' which one can do. This is hard to explain, but I guess I have become accustomed to having 50 ways of achieving the same results at a blocking stage :) With CS:GO SDK it seems there is one way, and that's it - do it that way or it won't compile.

Gonna give it another try over the weekend and also CE5 experimentation for brush/map work, too - but unless I find a pull down which lets me customise stuff to work the way I want it too, I think it will get buried until Source2.

Kinda wish UE4 had more games people were playing for it, where I could go to map...anyone?

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1 hour ago, Pampers said:

Spend less time writing novels theorizing and thinking about what to do (that's @blackdog job :):):):):):):) ) and just pick one and get cracking!

Totally - I can be quite rambolic and tangential...sorry :sad:

I have contacted the Sn. Producer of a UE4-based shooter today about level design for their game, which looks about 6-12 months away from being released.

On top of this, as mentioned I am still interested in CS:GO, but will probably keep searching for a better tool to work with (or game, more importantly!) or a UE4-based shooter.

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14 minutes ago, Mitch Mitchell said:

as mentioned I am still interested in CS:GO, but will probably keep searching for a better tool to work with (or game, more importantly!) or a UE4-based shooter.

try google sketchup? pretty sure you can use it to build a level for csgo. It's probably a good option if you have never touched hammer before, although I suggest getting used to hammer, there's a reason why people love its brush manipulation.

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As Pampers said, just pick one!

Ideally for a game you enjoy playing as you'll probably be more likely to actually see it through. I wouldn't worry about UE4 games having a lack of players. You're still going to get feedback on your work, especially from here. There's always going to be someone playing the game you're mapping for so just go for it.

If you don't like hammer then stick with UE4 or learn something new like CryENGINE or Unity. But stick with hammer if you can, you can grow to love it if you give it chance. No toolset or engine are going to be perfect for you, they all have their quirks and nuisances that you need to work with.

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On 8/23/2016 at 0:10 PM, Mitch Mitchell said:

 

More than happy to offer beer to that, 'sir - that is the kind of comment the internet sorely lacks!

I do play games, but have spent a long time playing games part-time and definitely fall into the 'hobbiest' category for level design.

Side topic (maybe not) why is the CryEngine5 is not being used so much for whiteboxing, or full-on level design - the 'designer tool' (playing with it as we speak) seems a decade forward than other tools on other engines....?

because it's about games not tools, and personally I don't like crydesigner, when I was there I actually used the old tools because I thought they did simple geometry more efficiently - could of been improved now, but I really don't want all the complex geometry options for a whitebox, ideally you'd stick to a 1m grid, and if your beveling things you've kinda missed the mark for a level designer (for a whitebox)  I understand it could be useful for students without a modeling app, but there are enough free ones these days I can't really see a use for it :S

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3 hours ago, tomm said:

try google sketchup? pretty sure you can use it to build a level for csgo. It's probably a good option if you have never touched hammer before, although I suggest getting used to hammer, there's a reason why people love its brush manipulation.

You can use Sketchup to create maps for CS:GO. As a matter of fact, lake, italy, bank, vertigo and stmarcs were made this way for CSGO. Not entirely sure about the full process, but you'll still need to be familiar with hammer though.

Also, you can use @shawnolson's WWMT to map for source using 3DSMAX.

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5 hours ago, Mitch Mitchell said:

Totally - I can be quite rambolic and tangential...sorry :sad:

I have contacted the Sn. Producer of a UE4-based shooter today about level design for their game, which looks about 6-12 months away from being released.

On top of this, as mentioned I am still interested in CS:GO, but will probably keep searching for a better tool to work with (or game, more importantly!) or a UE4-based shooter.

Battalion 1944?^^ Also have a look at Squad. It's a UE4 game and they recently released a SDK for the gamrz. Might be something for you?

Alsothe devs are pretty cool guys. Met some of them at gamescom.

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3 hours ago, 2d-chris said:

because it's about games not tools, and personally I don't like crydesigner, when I was there I actually used the old tools because I thought they did simple geometry more efficiently - could of been improved now, but I really don't want all the complex geometry options for a whitebox, ideally you'd stick to a 1m grid, and if you're bevelling things you've kinda missed the mark for a level designer (for a whitebox)  I understand it could be useful for students without a modelling app, but there are enough free ones these days I can't really see a use for it :S

I never said I was, but we all make mistakes do we not?

Glad we agree it is all about games, though.

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2 hours ago, Vilham said:

CoughChris'swhiteboxUT4mapentrywhichhadmodelsandbevelsCough

:P

ahahaa owned, to be fair I was trying to make it pretty, which comes under art :P 

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10 hours ago, Pampers said:

Spend less time writing novels theorizing and thinking about what to do (thats @blackdog job :):):):):):):) ) and just pick one and get cracking!

:( Truth hurts :( 

5 hours ago, Squad said:

You can use Sketchup to create maps for CS:GO. As a matter of fact, lake, italy, bank, vertigo and stmarcs were made this way for CSGO.

Fantastic, didn't know this!! But I have the feeling you have to pay for three very expensive full version of Sketchup? I investigated using it as brush tool for unity and you are stuck with the proprietary format I believe, unless you pay and can save in formats that you can import anywhere. There were some plugins ford three free version but can't remember why I discarded the idea and thought it would have been better at that point just to learn blender and do only one export.

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1 hour ago, Vaya said:

@laminutederire used sketchup for his first couple CSGO maps. Maybe he had documentation for the process?

Last few updates literally broke my workflow though...

Sketchup remains usable for models, but the vmf export still was funky at best.

I'll have to check it out again though. The good thing is that it works with the free version of sketchup.

There are similar tools for blender, and the probably most up-to-date tools are the one for 3dsmax since they are maintained by someone else than Valve

11 hours ago, blackdog said:

:( Truth hurts :( 

Fantastic, didn't know this!! But I have the feeling you have to pay for three very expensive full version of Sketchup? I investigated using it as brush tool for unity and you are stuck with the proprietary format I believe, unless you pay and can save in formats that you can import anywhere. There were some plugins ford three free version but can't remember why I discarded the idea and thought it would have been better at that point just to learn blender and do only one export.

The plug-in for sketchup you'd have to look for is on valve's documentation:

Sketchup source tools

It works with the free version of sketchup. Definitely less powerful than wall worm for 3dsmax, but it worked well for brushwork and models. Brushes are convex groups you model. The group hierarchy is saved when exporting to vmf, you can texture directly in sketchup, only the name of the texture matters. Haven't found a way to import displacements though. 

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I guess I don't really understand the end goal. If you're looking to do some hobbyist level design it should be a personal question, really. You're doing this for your own entertainment so your personal investment in a game should trump any kind of measure of popularity. If you want to make Doom WADs or CS:GO knife maps go and do that.

If you're looking for a path into The Biz then most of the important skills you learn making levels are transferable. The interface will change, everything has its own quirks, the scripting language will be different, etc. But you can pick this up fast once you've got the foundation down. Going lower level will only help.

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