[WIP] de_canaveral

[Logic]

Let's hope we'll playtest it soon.

However absolutely no rocket can be launched in a such a tight space, maybe say if is a museum with a real size rocket model but that's a detail!

This is true. Maybe it could be a rig where the engines are tested before the real launch? I'm sure they test them beforehand, but maybe check up on that fact  

Layout looks good, but as other people have stated, it needs to be built to see what works and what doesn't. Some angles looks long but in-game you'll spot this right away and can easily prevent them.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Logic

[laminutederire]

This is true. Maybe it could be a rig where the engines are tested before the real launch? I'm sure they test them beforehand, but maybe check up on that fact

I've seen a video of nasa testing a combustion engine... the flame went on a few meters, that could be cool to see in a map

[Logic]

I've seen a video of nasa testing a combustion engine... the flame went on a few meters, that could be cool to see in a map

Confirmed map feature: CT's can push a button which fires the engines and engulfs the entire A-site in flames, killing any T's on the site

[laminutederire]

Confirmed map feature: CT's can push a button which fires the engines and engulfs the entire A-site in flames, killing any T's on the site

ahaha button is in CT spawn and re usable: easy retake

but more Seriously, you can imagine putting the same smoke that firing that type of engine causes.

you have a one-time smoke feature for 2 or 3 seconds !

[baem123]

a more realistic option could be a photonic propulsion laser launchpad.

this technique allows us to push a 100kg unit to mars within some days. and its feasible with the technology we have today.

nasa video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDuAiA6kX0

[laminutederire]

a more realistic option could be a photonic propulsion laser launchpad.

this technique allows us to push a 100kg unit to mars within some days. and its feasible with the technology we have today.

nasa video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCDuAiA6kX0

Those americans! They think they are the only one doing things in the world (that guy made me laugh when he talked about Ligo's mirrors ^^ Have you listened to the conference? so few concrete infos to really take that too serisouly) ANyway, that will be at NiHil's to decide for his artistic approach

[lynx]

Any news?

I'd be interested in a playtest (EU) of the greybox

[1234567890throwaway]

Looks interesting, but it looks like there's a bad site line from T spawn exit to B site.

 

Edited May 8, 2016 by Goatacus

[NihiL]

Hey everybody, thanks for sticking around. I finally had the time to put together a first greybox. Here's a couple screenshots!

Some timings are still off and there are indeed some very bad sight lines still present (like the one @Goatacus pointed out, thanks) so there's still more to do. Roofs are missing, the map is not going to be open like that obviously.

Any thoughts?

[Freaky_Banana]

It looks really small. Just for reference, what are your rough timings ?

Edit: And may I please have the bsp for this one ? I would really love to run around for myself, looking at everything!

Edited October 1, 2016 by Freaky_Banana
PLEASE :3 !

[NihiL]

Yeah, as I said, timings are off. Rotation between the bombsites is short but okay (+/- ~1 second compared to Dust 2 and Cache) but T spawn to A/B is extremely fast. CTs ARE even faster but still, this makes for an extremely small map. I'm currently thinking of ways to extend the space between A/B and T spawn in a meaningful way.

I will definitely release the greybox version and post about that here, just ironing out the really obvious problems first!

Cheers!

[NihiL]

Alright, excuse the double post. Here's a new version.

Please let me know what you think! I added some callouts so we can talk about the layout more easily. Because it's hard to see in the image: the basement is only connected at the north and south-west (to lobby and mid respectively), not to B.

The sight line from T spawn through lobby, through main, into B is still problematic but it seems fixable with props or other vision occluders.

[Freaky_Banana]

9 hours ago, NihiL said:

Alright, excuse the double post. Here's a new version.

Please let me know what you think! I added some callouts so we can talk about the layout more easily. Because it's hard to see in the image: the basement is only connected at the north and south-west (to lobby and mid respectively), not to B.

The sight line from T spawn through lobby, through main, into B is still problematic but it seems fixable with props or other vision occluders.

I know this is only pictures and I still don't have an accurate scale measure, but I feel like the two entrances from B are basically still one. There is only one rather narrow-looking (and probably smokable) entry from CT, before the path splits into two. So Ts can just push in there after taking the site, smoke off CT and then wait in one of the two arms for any CT coming from Main (the only path left). Also I don't like the new path from T to outside. a) it's a superlong sightline (same goes for CT to A) and b) it doesn't allow for smooth rotations from A to B, because you have to go all the way around through T Spawn. Maybe just connect mid and T to outside at their common wall. This way Ts have a second concealed way into mid (read further down the post to understand how that would be balanced!), which still doesn't pop them out right in the CTs face.

And here is another MS Paint edit with problematic lines of sight I imagine there are:

- blue are sightlines , mostly very T sided (all except the one from control room probably) 

- S = problematic smokes (the one marked with a two is probably hard to land for CTs since there is no straight wall to bounce it off and it's up a stair!

- the red arrows indicate areas I don't like, thanks to their stretched narrow nature (same goes for ramp)

- also Main seems comparatively small and Ts should be able to come down ramp without being seen from the back of the site, just for smoothness of gameplay. By the way, where exactly is B Site ? Is it all around the rocket or is it back towards CT ?

- I am not sure whether I like the basement as it is. It offers Ts a really good way into mid, because to peak it CTs are going to have to move up rather far from control room (again here I don't know about the scale of things so this may not be as bad as I think it is!). But on the other side, it doesn't seem to provide any great use for CTs for a flankaround or rotation from one site to the other. So in this constellation of basement and mid I feel like Ts immediately get control of almost all the map. My idea to fix this is to connect both basement and the second B entrypoint (the top-one) to control room (instead of to where they are connected atm), offering CTs a good early push and Ts a good reward for breaking through. Also your retake problem for B is thereby made less severe (imho). With this version you have to be careful of sightlines from B into control room though!

I hope this helps  !

Cheers!

Edited October 2, 2016 by Freaky_Banana

[NihiL]

First of all, as always, thank you very much for your continued input, @Freaky_Banana! That's exactly what I'm looking for at this stage of the project!

Sorry that it took me a while to put this update together but I had to first read and understand your points, then come up with - hopefully - adequate solutions for those points you made that I agreed with, then map it all out and make the post!

Let me go through your points and then present layout version 4!

1.) The two entrances into B from CT: I agree absolutely, that wasn't very well thought out. I really liked the idea of connected the west entrance into B to the control room instead so I did that. This way Ts can not just smoke off two entrances after a bombsite take for the price of one!

2.) The connection from T to outside: Yeah, that was a very long sightline, which I also didn't like. I am not a fan of connecting that hallway to mid (see number 4 below for reasoning) so I broke up the sightline and worked around it differently. Ts that want to rotate away from a bombsite to the other now either use mid if they have control over it or - if they don't - they at least can just go through lobby and don't have to go through the actual T spawn anymore. I'm happy with that because I do think it's good CS map design when Ts do get punished somewhat for failing to take a bombsite AND not holding mid either (happens a lot on D2 when bad teams try and go B, first guy gets mowed down and then they just stand in upper tunnels - that's the punishment that I quite like).

3.) Sightlines in your image: Absolutely agree these were issues. I'm hopeful I managed to fix them all in the new layout below.

4.) Mid and basement: The way I see mid working right now is pretty much like on Mirage with mid and underpass there. Ts have a main entrance to mid (via lobby) and they have control over basement (underpass on Mirage). These are their tools to take mid control. If I added another path into mid, they'd have 3 entrances to mid and that I don't like, seems too much to me. CTs can push basement just like on Mirage but it only works as a surprise play because they expose themselves if they want to get into there, as you said. I changed the connections in the new layout accordingly: the south-east exit out of mid now is connected via the basement to the T side and the west entrance into B is connected to control room. I did not agree with adding a third connection in basement to the bombsite B as that would also give Ts three direct ways into B where they wouldn't be contested in any of them, making B pushes too strong.

5.) Main: Agreed, I made it bigger and made sure that Ts can come down the ramp (the path on the north-east into main) without being spotted by any CT playing a defensive position at the bombsite. They only get seen if they swing out wide towards the south-east in main. I think that's pretty good.

The actual bombsite zone in B is going to be towards the south end of the middle rocket btw!

Alright, here's version 4:

Any further input would be greatly appreciated please! I will release a playable version on the Steam workshop very soon, stay tuned for that!

Myself, I'm pretty happy with the layout so far. Only thing is, and you mentioned this @Freaky_Banana, Ts have little incentive to take mid. In fact, mid isn't really a classic mid in this layout, as it's not directly connected to B. It's really more like a second way to take A... I'm not convinced this is an issue though. Thoughts?

Edited October 3, 2016 by NihiL

[Roald]

If I look at the overview the basement connector is gonna be a problem. It will be a pain in the ass for CT to hold mid. The angle of the basement to the midle is weird, CT will be suprised if they stand at the control room looking into mid. When they stand from A to mid, they have a better angle but will be very vulnerable  from T spawn.

U maybe could fix this by making the control room closed and add a window, let it be a dropper / boostpoint or something. Like Mirage has really haha. This will also put more prevention for T's to backstab CT through the CT spawn. Maybe even put something they have to break what make noise to warn the CT's if they boost idk.. be creative

Another solution could be to remove the basement part and add the connector from B main to midle at the height of the text: (mid) in 'exhib hall (mid)'. or maybe a tunnel from this point to A outsite (so u walk below the midle to A). Tho I aint a real big fan of that, I had problem pulling this off nicely on my owns maps. But yea these are just ideas, Maybe u can do some with it

 

Edit: And another thing, the paths to B bombsite. I dislike the long path to the balcony, plz make main and balcony 1 path and let them split up at the height of the text 'Main'. Imagine when they rush balcony and a molotov gets thrown, u gotta run all the way back to T spawn and try something else. With this idea u can fall back and try B main or what ever, easier to split up aswell. It will make the map a litle more dynamic for T's 

Edited October 3, 2016 by Roald