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NihiL

[WIP] de_canaveral

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I already love the layout (I am currently working on a rather similar one myself concerning A) and I bet the style would make for an awesome visual appeal as well.

My only concern looking at the layout, is that B may be T-sided since you will always have the possibility of a pinsirs movement by Ts from control room. You will have to make the entrances rather narrow and easy to defend for the defending CTs (if its intended to have three CTs there that wouldn't be a problem though). Also the map will probably play very rush-heavy, since the CTs do not really get any intell on what is going on before the Ts all blow into the site. To avoid this problem it will be very important that A main is so open that CTs can gain control of the way from connector to lobby with sniper rifles when they push to right beneath the curved glass wall at A.

But as I said I love the theme and the layout in general and this is really some very hypothetical nitpicking and these problems are probably easy to avoid. Oh and block the sightline from balcony to CT spawn with something fat on the rocketpad please, so that CTs have a chance to retake from multiple positions.

Keep up the great work! Cheers!  

Edited by Freaky_Banana

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I already love the layout (I am currently working on a rather similar one myself concerning A) and I bet the style would make for an awesome visual appeal as well.

My only concern looking at the layout, is that B may be T-sided since you will always have the possibility of a pinsirs movement by Ts from control room. You will have to make the entrances rather narrow and easy to defend for the defending CTs (if its intended to have three CTs there that wouldn't be a problem though). Also the map will probably play very rush-heavy, since the CTs do not really get any intell on what is going on before the Ts all blow into the site. To avoid this problem it will be very important that A main is so open that CTs can gain control of the way from connector to lobby with sniper rifles when they push to right beneath the curved glass wall at A.

But as I said I love the theme and the layout in general and this is really some very hypothetical nitpicking and these problems are probably easy to avoid. Oh and block the sightline from balcony to CT spawn with something fat on the rocketpad please, so that CTs have a chance to retake from multiple positions.

Keep up the great work! Cheers!  

Thank you very much for your positive words so far! I do hope it gives me a chance to make a great environment visually because it 'plays more into my cards' so to speak, my previous map was run-down and Dust-y and I don't think I can do that as well as I can do stylish clean architecture!

The default CT setup I have in mind would have two on A (one for A main, one for balcony), two on B (exhibition hall/outside) and one for the dropdown. Alternatively one B player can double up in dropdown. This is exactly like in de_cbble pretty much.

Good point with the sightline from balcony to CT spawn, that needs to be obstructed indeed! Aiming for something like ticket booth to palace on de_mirage probably!

Thanks again for the kind words and suggestions, let me know if there's anything else!

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canaveral_concern.thumb.png.cafe7b803c9fOk so here is my concern (just to elaborate the idea; sightlines are in brown for Ts, pink for CTs; standard spots I'd expect brown for Ts and blue for CTs)

1. Ts smoke off A main (in your standard setup Ts don't even have to do this! a flash ould probably be enough)

- Option 1: surprise push the smoke with flashes while also pushing balcony

- Option 2: 2. pull the ramp guy towards dropdown

3. B guys push while simultaneously balcony pushes as a lurk. He can kill the CTs rotating from A through CT (and they cant really push A main because of the smoke) 

By doing this we have three CTs left in B against 4 Ts with one rotating CT (who wasn't killed by the lurk yet ) caught in a firefight with the lurk on A towards CT. The dropper Ts should be able to kill the one CT (even if that means losing one T) and therefore doing a pinsirs movement onto the two CTs remaining in B (who are fighting against the outside and the B main T). This should allow for Ts to get an easy advantage over the CTs in the site.

What I am essentially saying here, is that CTs should get intell with a sightline from below balcony into A main- connector-Lobby area to be able to prepare pushes better.These are just my thoughts though and maybe I am just overexaggerating the power of A main/connector as a rotation path to B.

Anyways, cheers! :)

 

EDIT: Oh and another thing, make the main CT entrance to B so wide, that it is not smokeable with only one smoke, otherwise that's two incredibly strong smokes winning the round for Ts!!)

Edited by Freaky_Banana
smoke strategies

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First of all, thank you very much for the in-depth post @Freaky_Banana, your drawing helped a lot for me to understand your point better. I do see what you're saying but I'm not sure if this problem you're describing isn't also present on other popular maps. Can you for example try and explain how the same scenario would work out on de_cbble?

My first issue is that if Ts smoke A main they're just smoking themselves in pretty much? At that point they can only push the smoke (which has them at a big disadvantage) or go through balcony where at least one CT is looking. I see this situation identically on de_cache's A bombsite for example where balcony is squeaky door.

As to your second point, the CT rotations post-plant, my logic was that every bombsite has three entrances which can be used for takes and retakes which seems to be the standard when I again think of any other map.

I don't want to sound defensive and dismiss your criticism, hopefully my post doesn't come across as such, my main problem is really that I don't see how your described problem doesn't take place exactly the same on other popular midless maps! I'd love it if you could contrast my layout to de_cbble, as I said, and let me know what you think the differences are.

Cheers! Working on a greybox now!

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Honestly can't and don't want to say much about a sketch.

I'd like to reserve judgement and feedback until the greybox is live!

Well probably this is true here ^^, but I'd yet like to answer Nihil in this case.

First of all, thank you very much for the in-depth post @Freaky_Banana, your drawing helped a lot for me to understand your point better. I do see what you're saying but I'm not sure if this problem you're describing isn't also present on other popular maps. Can you for example try and explain how the same scenario would work out on de_cbble?

 

Well, I am definitely not an expert on cobble (as well as midless maps so do not take my criticism for super intelligent :P ) and therefore I can not really explain this. I wouldn't even know where to look for a spot on which my criticism would apply as well :D . 

My first issue is that if Ts smoke A main they're just smoking themselves in pretty much? At that point they can only push the smoke (which has them at a big disadvantage) or go through balcony where at least one CT is looking. I see this situation identically on de_cache's A bombsite for example where balcony is squeaky door.

For this one I think it's a lot about mindgames. Have one guy flashing into B about 5 or 10 seconds after smoking A main and one CT on A will probably start to rotate (this is of course dependant on skilllevel, but I think I am talking for the average GN matchmaking here and the map is supposed to play well for as many players as possible). It is supposedly the one who was looking A main before, since he is closer to B. This will leave one guy still watching actively for an A push from within the site, which should make for an easy time for Terrorists to flash themselves out of A main and get the moment of surprise (one CT has his back turned, the other is watching two entrances at once).

As to your second point, the CT rotations post-plant, my logic was that every bombsite has three entrances which can be used for takes and retakes which seems to be the standard when I again think of any other map.

I guess you are right here, To my disgrace I must admitt that I didn't think about the timings of the B take compared to CT rotations when writing the post...

Then again I do think it may be hard to retake from lobby, if the way into B main is a stair, since the T in outside will always have a hardcore advantage over you as a CT pushing a (comparatively) narrow stair. But referring to Jackophant here, I guess we will just have to see how the playtest goes here.

I don't want to sound defensive and dismiss your criticism, hopefully my post doesn't come across as such, my main problem is really that I don't see how your described problem doesn't take place exactly the same on other popular midless maps! [...]

Cheers! Working on a greybox now!

Don't worry you do not dismiss my criticism in any way. Even just taking the time to reply already shows me that you're thinking about it :) . And if anything then my criticism is extremely aggressive, really pushing strategies to the verge of what could ever happen in a normal game of CSGO :D .

Last but not least: Wow I am hyped to see that greybox:dance: ! 

Cheers! 

   

Edited by Freaky_Banana

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Hi Nihil,

thats a neat setting. Great idea! I immediately started to imagine how this rocket launchpad area could look like.

My eyes like this presentation and your layout a lot, but my gamesense says it would be boring for the CTs.
Since A and B directly connect to the CT spawn, CTs could play around the area the whole game.
Terrorists have much longer rotation times. If you are a T and you go to the "Exhibition Hall" or the "Outside" area, you already commited yourself to go to B.
There is no easy way out. You cant reach the "control room", you could only go back to the lobby.

Im pretty sure that you need to give both CTs and Ts more options, but ofc jackophant is right: we need a playtest asap.
 

Edited by baem123

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Thank you @Lykrast!

Okay I've sorta put your two points together @baem123 and @Freaky_Banana and came up with version 2 of the layout. I agree that previously having only one way from CT spawn to A and B just wasn't cutting it and absolutely agree that it's boring to have to go B from exhibition hall. So here it is:

YZs5qEY.png

CTs can now go to B from Control Room or the left flank. And Ts can now go from the Exhibition Hall to A if they make it through instead of B.

Is this better? Any further thoughts/ideas/concerns?

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Yes, this looks better.

uAjJBqY.png

I dont know if you already wanted to block the view from the higher ground along the red lines? Id suggest it. Otherwise it could get really difficult to hold A.

Maybe the yellow passage should be a one way passage from "ct spawn" to the "control room". The loss of this blue sniper line could make it easier for Ts.
Depends on the way youd build it. One option could simply be a catwalk above the orange line in the control room. This catwalk could be connected to theCT spawn
but not avaiable from the connector. Below the catwalk could be the big display board of the control room. im sure you had your own ideas for this room already.

imho this is a good 2d layout. we can find more shortcomings in the greybox playtest.

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Does this topdown look like a PS1 disc casing on purpose? Haha!

Edit: I was overwhelmed by the design that I forgot to say; looking forward to see the blockout!
 

Edited by Sjonsson

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