de_farm [WIP]

[Dosentti]

I have already published a thread for this map once but shortly after that I changed the name of the map so now I wanted to do a proper thread.

I appreciate all feedback. I hope you'll comment everything that's good or bad or funny or crazy or whatever you have to say about it. 

The map has changed a lot after last update in thread de_urakka.

- Middle area has been made smaller, routes have been added and removed. Also the ground was raised by 64 units in the middle because there was (pretty much) unnecessary elevation.
- Some players also felt that the player was in "rats map". I tried to fix that by renewing the buildings a little and by making them smaller. 
- Some textures have been replaced, terrorist spawn point has been drawn further towards map borders.
- I have also tried to optimize the map as much as I can. It's very hard for this kind of open skybox map with a lot of gabled buildings though.

I have said the map is ready for too many times so I guess it's best not so say it again. Work is in progress at least until the next version after playtest.

Workshop link     <---------- you can find the layout and pictures here
Additional pictures on Imgur  <---------- Some updated pics

Thank you in advance! 

[Dosentti]

This was fourth time that I created this map from all over and I messed it up again so I'm going to create it once more all over.
I'm keeping same idea and most of routes but I want to create it well this time. 

Here is the new layout that I drew today. What do you think of it? Does these changes fix problems or create more of them?

I don't have as much experience as you guys so I hope you'll guide me a little. I value your opinions and tips very much. 
My projects seem to fail every time so I would like ask if I have learned everything right.
I was thinking that this time I want to create this level thoroughly.

1. draw layout few times and try to improve it every time. 
2. block in only floors and test the rough timings
3. block the walls in and place the most crucial gameplay elements to the level
4. First playtest(?)
5. fix the layout and put it in playtest again. And repeat this as long as the layout seems to be good.
6. refine the story and theme
7. start working with textures and details
8. test
9. fix and optimize
10. publish

Is that a proper phasing? Did I miss something?

Edited January 18, 2016 by Dosentti

[Vaya]

build your map as a greybox with little to no props. don't think TOO much about what area is going to be- you can do that later.

[R.I.P 3.0]

This was fourth time that I created this map from all over and I messed it up again so I'm going to create it once more all over.
I'm keeping same idea and most of routes but I want to create it well this time. 

Here is the new layout that I drew today. What do you think of it? Does these changes fix problems or create more of them?

Hidden Content

I don't have as much experience as you guys so I hope you'll guide me a little. I value your opinions and tips very much. 
My projects seem to fail every time so I would like ask if I have learned everything right.
I was thinking that this time I want to create this level thoroughly.

1. draw layout few times and try to improve it every time. 
2. block in only floors and test the rough timings
3. block the walls in and place the most crucial gameplay elements to the level
4. First playtest(?)
5. fix the layout and put it in playtest again. And repeat this as long as the layout seems to be good.
6. refine the story and theme
7. start working with textures and details
8. test
9. fix and optimize
10. publish

Is that a proper phasing? Did I miss something?

So, the layout is too complex. Can you make it simplified?

[Dosentti]

So, the layout is too complex. Can you make it simplified?

I can try. Which areas are the most complex? CT side of middle?

[jackophant]

I highly advise you do some reading on multiplayer level design.

I didn't notice the CT ladder up into the A window room until right at the end of the map when I was dead. Not only is it extremely fatal to try and get to having to jump out of a window and cross a T controlled mid, but there's nothing highlighting it's existence as it's almost the same colour as the underlying texture.

CTs have to jump through so many windows and doors and drop downs, it's honestly very unenjoyable. The number of times I died when Ts just appeared on A because they have so much cover only to die trying to get into a doorway or window was unacceptable.

There needs to be balance. If you've got a route that streamlines Ts to a bombsite with barely any chance for CTs to stop them, then the bombsite needs to be hard to enter or attack (think B dust2), but if you give them a more open route (close to your A long) then you can make your bombsite easier to plant in. However, your A route is very hidden to CTs, and if a CT dare peek, they get their head blown off from a lot of angles,including the side of their head from the windows Ts can push.

Less objects to run over would be nice, and try and make the spaces believable. That mid window for CTs is a drop from a super narrow staircase into a room with only a fireplace, window and vent. 

[R.I.P 3.0]

I can try. Which areas are the most complex? CT side of middle?

You can try to working on this. Big red cube is a train, brown is a crates

[Dosentti]

I highly advise you do some reading on multiplayer level design.

I didn't notice the CT ladder up into the A window room until right at the end of the map when I was dead. Not only is it extremely fatal to try and get to having to jump out of a window and cross a T controlled mid, but there's nothing highlighting it's existence as it's almost the same colour as the underlying texture.

CTs have to jump through so many windows and doors and drop downs, it's honestly very unenjoyable. The number of times I died when Ts just appeared on A because they have so much cover only to die trying to get into a doorway or window was unacceptable.

There needs to be balance. If you've got a route that streamlines Ts to a bombsite with barely any chance for CTs to stop them, then the bombsite needs to be hard to enter or attack (think B dust2), but if you give them a more open route (close to your A long) then you can make your bombsite easier to plant in. However, your A route is very hidden to CTs, and if a CT dare peek, they get their head blown off from a lot of angles,including the side of their head from the windows Ts can push.

Less objects to run over would be nice, and try and make the spaces believable. That mid window for CTs is a drop from a super narrow staircase into a room with only a fireplace, window and vent. 

Okay. Thank you for this. I'll try to solve these problems in next layout/version. The reason why I have places there so much windows and doors is that I have tried to make it realistic. But I guess those aren't practical enough.

Do you agree with R.I.P in the matter that my new layout still seems too complex?

 

You can try to working on this. Big red cube is a train, brown is a crates

There's definitely some potential in this layout that you drew but the changes are so huge that I can't change it that much. 
B bombsite changes I don't like in your layout but I for example the solution on A long looks better than mine. Also I don't like very much this route from CT spawn to A bombsite but middle looks great.

I will remake the layout and post the layout picture again. Thank you for your effort, I appreciate it.
 

[jackophant]

Okay. Thank you for this. I'll try to solve these problems in next layout/version. The reason why I have places there so much windows and doors is that I have tried to make it realistic. But I guess those aren't practical enough.

Do you agree with R.I.P in the matter that my new layout still seems too complex?

Having windows is fine, but a lot of yours don't even have glass in them. Using an opaque glass texture and some wooden boards on one/both sides is a good way to create something that feels realistic and is partially penetrable to offer interesting wallbangs. But please, make sure both teams have at least one route that doesn't require them to jump to get into each bombsite. It might sound picky but it makes things run a lot smoother. Try not to get caught up being too realistic because maps play well when they're well designed 

I don't think the layout as a whole should be binned, you just need to adjust it. I would definitely test it with us in greybox if you do remake a lot of it so you can make changes much faster.

Edited January 20, 2016 by jackophant

[Logic]

Don't trash the whole thing. Overpass was a mess before they changed the routes around and adjusted a lot of angles  

[Vaya]

you could delete and rebuild mid as a start. Something like RIP's mid looks much better. Less extreme elevation is the first goal imo

[Dosentti]

Having windows is fine, but a lot of yours don't even have glass in them. Using an opaque glass texture and some wooden boards on one/both sides is a good way to create something that feels realistic and is partially penetrable to offer interesting wallbangs. But please, make sure both teams have at least one route that doesn't require them to jump to get into each bombsite. It might sound picky but it makes things run a lot smoother. Try not to get caught up being too realistic because maps play well when they're well designed 

I don't think the layout as a whole should be binned, you just need to adjust it. I would definitely test it with us in greybox if you do remake a lot of it so you can make changes much faster.

The first layout is ready now. Should I block in the ceilings too before you guys testing it or is it enough if there's only sky as a roof for now?

The layout changed as much as I thought it would when I try to make it  again. But I also tried to make routes more obvious.

Here it is. Better?

And And here's the .bsp if you could be so kind and check it through

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Dosentti

[Dosentti]

I will create few different versions of this layout and submit all of them in here when they are done. After that people can say which is the best.

[Logic]

Here it is. Better?

You probably shouldn't remove the blue or white area. The map looks a lot cleaner this time around
 

I will create few different versions of this layout and submit all of them in here when they are done. After that people can say which is the best.

I think you should focus on one version and let people give you feedback on that one. We can't really tell how things play out in game based on a couple of overviews, so it's better to present one version and have people play that instead. I know this isn't that helpful, but you should try to develop a layout that YOU think will work, and then let others try it out, not the other way around

[MadsenFK]

Nice, keep up the good work!