Are all french people of Mapcore Okay?

[laminutederire]

@(HP) from where do these statistics even come from? In my school there are a lot of Muslims, and while they can be annoying making noise late, not a single one has ever been violent with anyone, and not one has ever tried to convert someone to their religion. When you talk about it with them, they acknowledge the fact that what is put under n the name of Islam is messed up, but it isn't the religion they know. They also known it is their duty to change how people talk about that religion, precisely to show that those conservative movements in the middle east are everything but religion. Islamic countries where there really are issues are countries like Dubai, Saudi Arabia etc., countries where women have so limited rights for instance. 

I think we won't agree on anything,  because we don't mean the same thing for religions. I strongly believe because of what I know of history and society and philosophy, that religion isn't an irrational belief. You can't reason with religions because part of the religion is to set aside rationality for pure belief. Bit the choice to believe in any religion can be put down to rationality,for the sole fact that choosing not to use logic whatsoever is against the core mechanics of the human mind. Once this choice has been made by individuals, or by countries, religions merely act as cultural rules. The non pork policy in many religions comes from an historical reason, and mainly every rule has a logic origin. For all those reason, religion becomes a pre made morality for people who don't want to build their own.

What is happening with terrorists is amorality. They perfectly know that it isn't okay to rape people and kill them, but they do it anyway because they feel like morality hasn't a grasp on the world, and they don't have any duty to have any. That is what I meant when I talked about the fact the world was messed up and that it creates germs for fanatical movements.

Finally, why religion wouldn't be an object submitted to logic? It's an human construction, and therefore it has a particular structure which obeys to logic. I don't say it is the logic we are used to nowadays, but is a form of logic. It's the rationality of Rome or Ancient Greece, which has endured ages all the way to the 18-19th century. I'm talking about induction, the way how science was built upon. Inductive logic can explain lots of religious rules, but we don't see it as logic, because that type of method is fundamentally wrong if you want to access something true. It sometimes work, but science has left that because it would have been stuck to trivial things otherwise. And that may be why today that's what people think about when they think about rationality.

I know I rationalize a lot of things, but while I respect your point of view, and that I stand by mine, I don't think that this is the kind of debate from which will arise the solution to our problems. Solutions will arise from changes on our societies.

[FrieChamp]

On 3/25/2016 at 2:49 AM, (HP) said:

In my opinion, it's absolutely about religion and denying that is just trying to rationalize and trying to find logic arguments in a subject that doesn't respect your conventional rational rules... as religion doesn't.

I know far left people hate it when they hear this, but I mean, they literally scream "allahu akbar" when they kill others along with themselves, two thirds of muslims believe that the penalty for apostasy should be death and it's ok to rape or kill infidels, among other batshit crazy shit they believe and more importantly put into practice because it's in their sacred book. Islamic countries have completely different values and completely different culture than we do in the west. (We're slowly heading towards secularism, whereas islamic countries seem to be even more religious and conservative) so what we're living through now is purely a culture war and like Sam Harris eloquently puts, understanding and criticizing the doctrine of islam, and finding ways to inspire muslims to reform it, is one of the most important challenges the civilized world faces.

 

I agree that trying to rationalize everything by leaving religion completely out of the picture is the wrong thing to do but doing the extreme opposite thing by trying to blame everything on religion is just as wrong. When you look at the terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland which struck the region for several decades, you could, without digging deeper, file this under purely religious motivated conflicts between Catholics and Protestants. But the real reasons are societal, economical and political which have their origin many centuries before. I guess we would be better off without religions due their potential for tribal "us vs them" mentalities, to disguise sinister intentions and manipulate people. But it is too easy to say "IS exists because Muslims are crazy, therefore all Muslims are dangerous and need to be kept out or under surveillance". I'm not saying you are, but that's how some people seem to go about it.

[Lizard]

5 hours ago, FrieChamp said:

I agree that trying to rationalize everything by leaving religion completely out of the picture is the wrong thing to do but doing the extreme opposite thing by trying to blame everything on religion is just as wrong. When you look at the terrorist attacks in Northern Ireland which struck the region for several decades, you could, without digging deeper, file this under purely religious motivated conflicts between Catholics and Protestants. But the real reasons are societal, economical and political which have their origin many centuries before. I guess we would be better off without religions due their potential for tribal "us vs them" mentalities, to disguise sinister intentions and manipulate people. But it is too easy to say "IS exists because Muslims are crazy, therefore all Muslims are dangerous and need to be kept out or under surveillance". I'm not saying you are, but that's how some people seem to go about it.

How can you explain a muslim store owner being chopped to pieces by another muslims just because he twitted "happy easter to my catholic clients". Will you justify that with societal, economical and political reasons ? They are simply crazy. Its all about thier value system being different. 

[laminutederire]

1 hour ago, LizardPL said:

How can you explain a muslim store owner being chopped to pieces by another muslims just because he twitted "happy easter to my catholic clients". Will you justify that with societal, economical and political reasons ? They are simply crazy. Its all about thier value system being different. 

First of all:

How can you explain a less than 10 years old kid killing his mother by shooting her with a gun, just because she idolized her kid's ability to aim? (I happened in the US a few weeks back) Because western people are all crazy? Not at all. You can't just generalize from one example.

Secondly, the societal, economics and political reasons explain why they get brainwashed by extremists people. They explain why they would do such an absurdity for the name of a religion they don't really know and follow. They don't explain the act itself, but why people would get to a state of mind where they could believe things which would make them do such things.

[laminutederire]

3 minutes ago, Bevielis said:

" You can't just generalize from one example. "

Allah is just, allah is swift.

 

What is the source behind that chart?

I see the url at the bottom; but I don't see where they get their figures from.

[Lizard]

5 minutes ago, laminutederire said:

What is the source behind that chart?

I see the url at the bottom; but I don't see where they get their figures from.

Why you ppl always try to neglect every report/chart ? 

To your previous post. 

Difference is Im not trying to justify anyone by looking for some reasons. You are talking about societal, economics and political reasons. For example. If I want to live better life I move to Canada. It turns out that I dont really like it. I move back to Poland. Im not making everyone life worst. You are right about those things but only in wider aspect. Its true that all big economics powers were supporting ISIS at some point. Some even now. But the problem with refuges is laying on different level. If you want to accept with 2 milions ppl with different culture and system of values and you hope they will assimilate . . . well you are very optimistic. 

[Vorontsov]

stop being a fucking islam apologist dude, we know not all muslims are like this but don't preach "its the religion of peace" when even the most moderate muslims have backwards values, it doesn't get more clear than ALLAH IS GREAT and then proceeding to blow yourself up

[laminutederire]

@Vorontsov, maybe so, but not because they're muslims, but because they're religious. I can find a lot of examples like that in the Catholic conservative branch, which is really messed up with the extreme right wing, at least where I come from.

@Bevielis, @LizardPL  I'm just used to have to verify sources because in science I often came upon fraudulent work on the Internet,  saying false things.

As for the migrant crisis,  I don't really see how it connects that closely to ISIS, I don't know if the Terrorists were part of the migrant move, but I don't think so. In the past, they mostly were western citizens being brainwashed there and when they got back they caused problems. That crisis certainly don't help, but if it was up to me, I'd let them go to the UK since they want to go there and well the UK makes the other countries pay for the expenses of us not letting them to go there. I'd also ne mindful of the schengen space agreement, those at the borders have to do what's needed to have the control on who is getting in, and who isn't. (And when I hear about Turkey wanting more money to do so, I laugh, because they won't do anything. ) once everyone will have their duties straight, there will be more control over the situation. And to me rejecting most of the people fleeing their country wouldn't be an inhumane thing to do, because fleeing has never been an option, for their country to go better they have to stay.

Anyway, it's a bit off-topic.

From what you guys say, I have to answer that yeah there are some issues with the Muslims populations, but thecauses of that aren't written in their sacred book. To me, it's more of a misinterpretation due to a lack of education, especially to philosophy, which is the pillar of the human right, and that people who don't understand it, mostly do so because of lack of intellectual awareness about the notions underlying it.

Sadly, everyone in Europe isn't understanding those either, but they comply more easily because of law obediance, and therefore don't cause much issues.

[Vorontsov]

3 hours ago, laminutederire said:

@Vorontsov, maybe so, but not because they're muslims, but because they're religious. I can find a lot of examples like that in the Catholic conservative branch, which is really messed up with the extreme right wing, at least where I come from.

 

Did they suicide bomb a dense location full of innocent people going by their day?

[Lizard]

3 hours ago, laminutederire said:

@Vorontsov, maybe so, but not because they're muslims, but because they're religious. I can find a lot of examples like that in the Catholic conservative branch, which is really messed up with the extreme right wing, at least where I come from.

@Bevielis, @LizardPL  I'm just used to have to verify sources because in science I often came upon fraudulent work on the Internet,  saying false things.

As for the migrant crisis,  I don't really see how it connects that closely to ISIS, I don't know if the Terrorists were part of the migrant move, but I don't think so. In the past, they mostly were western citizens being brainwashed there and when they got back they caused problems. That crisis certainly don't help, but if it was up to me, I'd let them go to the UK since they want to go there and well the UK makes the other countries pay for the expenses of us not letting them to go there. I'd also ne mindful of the schengen space agreement, those at the borders have to do what's needed to have the control on who is getting in, and who isn't. (And when I hear about Turkey wanting more money to do so, I laugh, because they won't do anything. ) once everyone will have their duties straight, there will be more control over the situation. And to me rejecting most of the people fleeing their country wouldn't be an inhumane thing to do, because fleeing has never been an option, for their country to go better they have to stay.

Anyway, it's a bit off-topic.

From what you guys say, I have to answer that yeah there are some issues with the Muslims populations, but thecauses of that aren't written in their sacred book. To me, it's more of a misinterpretation due to a lack of education, especially to philosophy, which is the pillar of the human right, and that people who don't understand it, mostly do so because of lack of intellectual awareness about the notions underlying it.

Sadly, everyone in Europe isn't understanding those either, but they comply more easily because of law obediance, and therefore don't cause much issues.

I really appreciate solid discussion with you. I can agree on some of your points.

To the ISIS . A Lot of refugees are coming from areas where ISIS is taking over control. USA, UK, France and many others trying to stop ISIS now is a joke. They were pushing moneys from the beginning of war in Iraq. Now when people are running away from isis they are saying that they need to stop this and whats worse people are buying this shit.
I have very simple answer to the whole situation where muslim people are feeling disconnected from the rest of us.
Think this way. Would you accept their value system, mind set and mores if you were forced to run away from europe to Syria for example?
I'm 100% sure your answer would be "no". So who the hell thought that bringing 2 million muslim to the Europe is a great idea?
 

 

[Seldoon182]

5 hours ago, LizardPL said:

Why you ppl always try to neglect every report/chart ? 

B/c some ppl (hopefully) developed a critical mind to avoid ignorance such as the chart that has just been shared. Charts, surveys are tools used to brain wash and cleft ppl. Build your opinion from false information is easy. Shortcut, generalities while we need time to understand the complexity of our world. But ppl don't have time. (except HL3 dev :p)

[laminutederire]

2 hours ago, LizardPL said:

I really appreciate solid discussion with you. I can agree on some of your points.

To the ISIS . A Lot of refugees are coming from areas where ISIS is taking over control. USA, UK, France and many others trying to stop ISIS now is a joke. They were pushing moneys from the beginning of war in Iraq. Now when people are running away from isis they are saying that they need to stop this and whats worse people are buying this shit.
I have very simple answer to the whole situation where muslim people are feeling disconnected from the rest of us.
Think this way. Would you accept their value system, mind set and mores if you were forced to run away from europe to Syria for example?
I'm 100% sure your answer would be "no". So who the hell thought that bringing 2 million muslim to the Europe is a great idea?
 

 

Yeah I know they flee their country mainly because of ISIS. I also know our politicians haven't really any once on credibility, and trust me I intend to do what I can to have better governments, but in the meantime I don't really see what can really force them to run away? I mean during the nazi era in Europe, people didn't run away and they did what they could to fight for their rights, why aren't they doing the same thing in Syria? That's the part I really don't understand at all, and that may be crucial for the well being of everyone. Because them leaving gives more power to ISIS and threatens Europe which won't have any penny to give to help migrants, and they will suffer from poverty etc, as, let's face it, they won't get jobs easily, since they don't speak the language and that unemployment rates are already high everywhere.

That unfortunately balance the fight in favor of ISIS instead of harming them..

[FrieChamp]

19 hours ago, LizardPL said:

How can you explain a muslim store owner being chopped to pieces by another muslims just because he twitted "happy easter to my catholic clients". Will you justify that with societal, economical and political reasons ? They are simply crazy. Its all about thier value system being different. 

It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...

See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.

@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,

[laminutederire]

25 minutes ago, FrieChamp said:

It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...

See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.

@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,

I don't blame anyone, but personnally I'd rather die a hero than run away like that. I know it isn't easy, but when everyone flees like that it just gives the bad peoples there with all the power. But hey that's our fault as well since we all pay for those atrocities with oil buys etc.

However, you're right about two things, the more unaccustomed people are, the more racists they can become. And of course the main issue is integration. It always have been the issue with large immigration movements. For instance in France we had that issue with a part of Romanian immigrans who came here with no intend to integrate themselves in te society, and that causes a lot of issues. And the issue nowadays with the syrian immiggrants is that they come here mostly to be safe, and not to be part of Europe. Of course some want to blend in etc, but the fact that they come as an enormous flow, doesn't help them integrate or even want to integrate themselves. That's why accepting everyone like that isn't a solution. If anything we should place those peoples with an uniform repartition over the Europe, and let them know that this kind of support isn't going to be lasting forever unless they become a real part of the society. That would give them a chance to be safe while the situation is been solved, and also repopulate Syria afterwards.

[Lizard]

1 hour ago, FrieChamp said:

It's fucked up. The guy who killed him must be a religious fanatic and a lunatic. I hate these people. It's especially tragic, because the store owner seemed to be a caring, much-loved individual and well-respected by the community he was living in. But you do realize that the store owner was also Muslim, right? I mean, you mention it, but then you go on to call "all" Muslims crazy...

See, in Germany, the regions that are the most against immigration are the ones with the lowest population of Muslims. It's funny because if all Muslims were violent fanatics then you would think that their Christian and atheist neighbors would be the first to complain about them. But instead it's the people who are afraid of the foreign(ers). And sadly these people also generalize a lot. I guess this can be seen at a bigger scale in all of Europe nowadays.

@laminutederire: Except for hundreds of thousands of Jews who fled their home countries? And who can blame them? Or the Syrian refugees? If my family and me were eating grass in Aleppo because Assad's troops are sieging the city for weeks or my town is about to be overrun by psychopaths who threaten to cut off our heads or enslave my wife then, hell yes, I would try to get the fuck away. And I think there is no shame in doing that. There are by the way a substantial amount of Syrians who picked up the fight against the dictator AND the religious fanatics and see how well that has worked out so far.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing for open borders for everyone regardless of origin and without registration and background-checks. And I'm concerned about integration, too. But the other extreme of taking NOBODY in is IMO ice cold, inhumane and I won't stand for it,

Yes forgot to mention that the store owner was a muslim. I misspoken there. Sorry.

You guys are bringing a good point here. 

If all refugees would fight for their country like they fight with border services Syria would be free now. They are cowards thats all. How can you imagine these ppl care about your country if they dont care about theirs?