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Logic

Complex

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Haha, time for feedback!

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The red parts aren't walkable, but the green parts are. This is a bit confusing. I'd suggest either have them all walkable or none of them

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This dead end is a bit confusing. If you want this to be used, you could add a ladder. Otherwise you may end up better just deleting this dead end.

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In most maps you can open these, sit inside, and then surprise opponents. In this map, you cannot even open them. That's fine, but then place something infront of them so it visually suggest they cannot be used.

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You haven't detailed much yet, but this still looked weird enough for me to screenshot it.

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This elevator needs to go! Replace it with a wood wall or something bangable, but not visible. If you notice that red arrow, it's pointing towards a CTs head. It's just a bit of a mess to aim and shoot past. More fiddly than fun.

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Maybe you could add an outside building here to allow for smokes. This gives T side a bit more advantage, because currently...

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...it looks mostly like this.

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The bomb can get stuck up there, it's circled. Also, this is another dead end that doesn't necessarily have to be there.

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The players can't see this, but I think the bomb can get stuck there. Maybe move the wall up a bit instead?

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This 'house-in-a-shipping-container' is neat, but in real life these would at least have some windows. This could also help making the map feel more like a whole. This is completely not gameplay related.

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Same goes here. Not gameplay related, just to give the map some more identity

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Why does this red route exist? The green one is faster anyway, and this red one is zig-zagging all over the place, which is annoying to walk through.

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Smoothing things would make it look better

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You could make these 2 hallways into a room, and then add cover with boxes or other things, which I indicated in green here. This could help make the level feel less hallway-y

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This spot can give the T side kind of a 'gotcha' feeling. As a CT, you would have to run all the way over and check it, otherwise you might get backstabbed. If that is your gameplay idea, cool! If not, maybe make it so players cannot 100% hide here, but are visible even a little bit.

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I really liked fighting here. Good grenade possibilities, it feels not like a hallway (even though it technically is), and the grates and fences make for fun shooting.

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I love seeing the crane all the way from the other site. It really gives the map a shape of identity and feel. It just looks cool!

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Add cubemaps for the next playtest! It's super fast to make them anyway, so it can't hurt, and every reflective surface in the map will look better for it!

That's it for now. Remember my feedback is my opinion! You can disregard all of it if you want to, just use what you think can help your vision of the map.

Edited by Tyker

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My feedback condensed one neat picture!

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Also forget to put in there that because the CTs are so exposed in middle that they basically can't stop Ts from taking control of it through either of the entrances. If they try to the upper area Ts can just push the bottom area no problem and if they try to hold the bottom area they expose themselves to the upper area. Lastly, I feel like because of the entrances to either of the sites CTs can push up a lot which causes most of the fights to happen on the way to the sites instead of on the site itself. That's not necessarily a bad thing to have on one of the sites, but both sites seems much.

Overall I'd say the map is coming along nicely, though. :)

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Haha, time for feedback!

I'm not gonna quote that whole shibang! :v I am however going to try addressing all of the notes you made down below!

  1. The bad walkable parts on B will be executed better next time, I was just lazy.
  2. The dead end in T-spawn will either lead to somewhere or be removed.
  3. Porter potty's on A has been blocked off to prevent confusion.
  4. Slight detailing oversight in T-spawn, doesn't really matter if I'm honest.
  5. The elevator spot on B caused a lot of frustration. This will be addressed, but I think B will be reworked and move away from the B-long approach.
  6. I understand players when they want to smoke off B-long from T-side but don't know the proper angles to do so. It is however very easy to do and not that hard to figure out. I just think players need too look for a way to do it and they will find one within minutes. Playtest is playtest I guess.
  7. The other dead end in T-spawn will also be removed.
  8. The changes to the crates on the way to upper A (for T's) was last minute, that's why it looks odd, but I've made sure that the bomb couldn't get stuck there.
  9. Windows in the barracks would look really nice! I'll try to add them in a bit further ahead into the detailing stage though.
  10. The "red route" has been removed. It was originally connected to mid, but the door was removed and moved to a less useful position.
  11. I did smoothing on the crane, but I think it was left out in this version for some. My mistake.
  12. I will try to rework upper A to something less "corridory", starting with removing the wall you marked.
  13. Extra areas are never appreciated in playtests and I can see why. Upper A crate corner has been removed.
  14. Glad you liked fighting in upper A. It will be reworked but I will try to keep some things about it intact.
  15. The crane did look cool! I'll try to keep the angle throughout development!
  16. Cubemaps doesn't really change how the map plays, but I guess I can add them in.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. The pictures really helped! It also helps me to write all of this down :v 

My feedback condensed one neat picture!

Also forget to put in there that because the CTs are so exposed in middle that they basically can't stop Ts from taking control of it through either of the entrances. If they try to the upper area Ts can just push the bottom area no problem and if they try to hold the bottom area they expose themselves to the upper area. Lastly, I feel like because of the entrances to either of the sites CTs can push up a lot which causes most of the fights to happen on the way to the sites instead of on the site itself. That's not necessarily a bad thing to have on one of the sites, but both sites seems much.

Overall I'd say the map is coming along nicely, though. :)

Thanks for the feedback, picture and words of encouragement! I think that I have addressed most of the issues above except the mid conundrum you mentioned.

I want T's to have more control over mid because I want the chokepoints to be in the tunnel and top-mid doorway. There are strategies that CT's can pull off to easier get control over mid however, but this is a playtest and no-one has really figured any smokes or strats yet. That said, I will try to redesign middle since it seemed too easy for the T's to push upper mid and go towards B or CT spawn.

Again, tanks for the feedback! Opinion in text really helps a lot! :)

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If you want to have a middle that is easily controlled by Ts I suggest taking a look at Dust 2. A perfect example of a middle area that is easily controlled by Ts, but also gives CTs some interesting options. Right now I feel like the options for the CT holding mid are a bit limited. (I did like the window you can throw flashes through, though)

Edited by Overdoziz

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I understand players when they want to smoke off B-long from T-side but don't know the proper angles to do so. It is however very easy to do and not that hard to figure out. I just think players need too look for a way to do it and they will find one within minutes. Playtest is playtest I guess.

If it's very easy to do so and not hard to figure out, then wouldn't players have done so during the playtest to make themselves not die on long B? 

Many people still died there every round. The screenshot with all the dead Ts on long B stands as evidence. (Unless you're going through the demo and finding completely different evidence, in which case disregard the rest of this post!) 

If it's easy to do and figure out for you, that's fantastic! But apparently most players didn't. And in the end the map is not just for you to play, but for (hopefully) a large amount of different players. A big building on the side, for example, could really solidify the idea of being able to throw grenades onto it to many different players. Especially if you add reflective windows or props at certain locations to guide the aiming of grenades onto it.

Edited by Tyker

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If you want to have a middle that is easily controlled by Ts I suggest taking a look at Dust 2. A perfect example of a middle area that is easily controlled by Ts, but also gives CTs some interesting options. Right now I feel like the options for the CT holding mid are a bit limited. (I did like the window you can throw flashes through, though)

Looking at D2's mid tells me that even though CT's can't hold mid completely, they can still hold strong angles in order to know what's going on in mid. I will look into redesigning mid so that CT's have more options to engage the enemies :)

If it's very easy to do so and not hard to figure out, then wouldn't players have done so during the playtest to make themselves not die on long B? 

Many people still died there every round. The screenshot with all the dead Ts on long B stands as evidence. (Unless you're going through the demo and finding completely different evidence, in which case disregard the rest of this post!) 

If it's easy to do and figure out for you, that's fantastic! But apparently most players didn't. And in the end the map is not just for you to play, but for (hopefully) a large amount of different players. A big building on the side, for example, could really solidify the idea of being able to throw grenades onto it to many different players. Especially if you add reflective windows or props at certain locations to guide the aiming of grenades onto it.

I believe that the reason so many T's died on B-long was the bad lift model that was placed close to the CT's. A lot of hate was directed towards this, and rightfully so. I wasn't happy with the timings to this area and door control was too CT-sided. There was a lot of other issues in this part of the map.

The smoke is very easy to learn if you take 2 minutes to learn it, that doesn't mean that everyone in the playtest will know how to do it first time playing the map and I don't expect them to. But, I don't think adding a wall that makes throwing smokes easier is the way to go.

Edited by Logic

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I've been absent for a while now but it's time to resurrect this map/thread! :v

There has been some major improvements to the map so far!

A-site

  • Created another entrance from T-to-A
  • Made the area a bit wider
  • Closed off the barrack for better gameplay :(
  • Made site slightly smaller and more centered around the base of the crane

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T-to-A:

  • Now features an actual area and not just a series of hallways
  • Connected CW to an elevated window-spot
  • Connected the dead-end-route from T-spawn to T-to-A

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T-to-B (front):

  • Reworked the whole area
  • Brought back the door and side-route chokepoints from previous iterations
  • Long B is now a lot shorter and requires T's to push lobby before entering

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T-to-B (back):

  • Reworked the whole area
  • Added an elevator shaft with a vent that makes throwing smokes into the front lobby slightly easier
  • Added an upper section that also connects to Mid

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Connection:

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Next up is B-site where I will pretty much rework the entire site. 

Logic out! :cool:

Edited by Logic

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A month has passed without any updates and it's time to reveal what's going on.

Has the map been scrapped?
No, but the map has have been heavily modified and the theme has been changed. I've made enough changes to it so that it doesn't quite feel like de_complex anymore, so the map will be re-released under a different name.

So, it's an entirely new map?
Not quite. Elements of the old map still remains. Tunnel, A-site and parts of Middle will feel a bit familiar to some, the rest of the map has been built from scratch.

Why all the changes?
The map as a whole might have worked out ok, but the layout didn't play as I intended. Mid was too hard for CT's to do anything with and was lacking in complexity. The rotation times for CT's was a bit long as well, and I couldn't for the life of me find a solution to the problem without making structures that wouldn't make any sense.

Why the change in theme?
I never based my map on real life structures and found it hard to make the whole thing look realistic. I could imagine how it would look in the end but also realized that a map filled with tall buildings everywhere would make the map dark and smoke-setups really awkward to pull off. I found a theme that I really loved and changed it in a heartbeat. I'm happy that I made the switch.

So, what's next?
I will announce the new map once it's ready for playtesting. Until then, have this small sneak peek of the new project.

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This will be the last update to this thread. Logic out! :D

Edited by Logic

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2 hours ago, BreadParticles said:

any progressionizations?

I really want to see where this map is headed

Thank you for showing interest in the map :)

Progress is slow, really slow... I don't make enough progress per hour spent on it, and I'm still at the layout stage. That said, I am extremely happy with the areas that are done and they won't be changed much until I've gathered feedback from a playtest.

I have no intention to release any build yet, since big chunks of the map are still under heavy construction. I only showcase the map in private session with friends. If you really want to see the map for yourself you can add me on Steam :) When I feel like the map is good enough to playtest I will do so with a competitive 5v5 game to iron out some flaws, before applying to the Mapcore playtest.

No thread will be created yet either, since there are still major changes taking place. Showing the current state would waste both my time and anyone else providing feedback to it.

I'm rambling :v But to sum up:

  • Progress is slow, but at least there is progress
  • I have no intention to release any builds until playtest is ready
  • No thread will be created either.
  • Add me on steam on future updates! :)

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After taking some time to gather and break down the feedback it's pretty obvious that there are a few major flaws with the map in it's current state.

  1. T's are very limited when going mid, mainly because of the awkward S-curve I added to keep T's from getting to mid too early. I will redesign this area to make it more interesting for attackers.
  2. T's are very limited when going B. While the hard chokepoint is intended it's no fun for terrorists to stand around and wait while smokes are up. I will connect this area to mid more to give attackers something to do mid-round.
  3. It's safe to say that I have a scaling issue and that the map is too big because of it. While the theme features large structures I kinda went overboard with the scale. I have started to scale things down and will probably try to make the map 20-25% smaller.

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Thank you to everyone who have provided feedback so far!

Slow progress this week. Haven't been able to get much done, but regularly posting some progress might help out. We'll see...

Edited by Logic

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