ALL MAPS FROM THE CONTEST IN ONE PLACE

[Bodd Jonar]

The vast majority of Counter-Strike players probably don't know what nodraw is, but that doesn't render their opinion on a map's gameplay and aesthetic quality any less valid than somebody who does.

Oliver said pretty much what I thought. 

The nodraw thing was just a minor thing btw, the way he judge the maps was very weird and made no sense. I would think that CEVO would playtest a map before rendering a layout useless, not just run around on it for 10 minutes and focusing 7 minutes of them on nonsense. Cotton shouldn't judge maps alone, is all I'm saying.

[Oliver]

Ideally the jury would consist of map makers, as well as pros, and players of various ranks, so that the map appeal to a wide range of people, with a competitive playability, while favoring interesting and different layouts which would be recognized more easily by mappers.

Also, map makers have a particular eye on things such as polishing, they can see more easily if a map is really well thought, through how it is optimized, and even through the brushwork. This can help choose between two maps both great gameplay and aesthetics wise. Maybe that's part of what you meant @Oliver?

However, @text_fish, one could argue that probably half of players play either dust2 or mirage

Oh yeah, definitely, a combination of all kinds of angles from the CS:GO community would be the ideal jury. I am happy about the current format though, we've got a jury consisting of three mapmakers, one artist and one journalist, so I trust that we will get a very fair judging from their part! In the future I hope to see these contest only getting more attention from the community! Better maps is what keeps the game alive. 

[ics]

The vast majority of Counter-Strike players probably don't know what nodraw is, but that doesn't render their opinion on a map's gameplay and aesthetic quality any less valid than somebody who does.

Being real honest here. Over the past 7 years i've tested my maps on live server with the community i run, for different games and mostly what i get out of them are 3 sentences. 1. Good map. 2. Shit map (and quit). 3, the most common answer: Silence.

I guess what i'm trying to say here is, either people get really good first impression or they get frustrated if the map has more than 2 turns to see the enemy (dust2 for example, hass less than 3.). Most gamers are simple minded and play the same maps over and over. They aren't even interested of trying new maps unless they get some sort of perks or profit from it. Vast majority of CSGO gamers do not ever buy the mission pass or whatever they call that.

So having a judge that genuinely is interested of testing new things, regardless if he has technical knowledge about maps is perfectly fine but if you throw that task to someone who simply "has to do it", is a bad thing. So i'm hoping these guys who pick the maps (who of course are mapcore staff and do know something about maps), also play the candidates ingame and not simply watch screenshots.

Edited September 2, 2015 by ics
fixed a typo

[Oliver]

@ics I agree with you on the point that most players are drawn to the first impressions of the map (cover image and the overview image). What this contest has taught me more than anything is that theme is what sells. Players will make an opinion whether your map is worthy of checking out within a few seconds of looking at the workshop page. So finding the balance between complexity (laying out opportunities for varied and deeper play) and simplicity (simple, elegant layout that guides new players and welcomes the player rather than having the barrier of learning a map thoroughly) in your map is the most difficult part to do. All this while implementing the layout with fitting surroundings. Sorry if I'm rambling, but as mapmakers it can be frustrating to have a layout just shot down by people who only took one glance at it. Hiding the "complexity" in the layout within the theme could make the player see the map differently. Since we as mapmakers also have to consider the visual language that is the theme.

Again if this seems like some counter-argument it really is just me talking about map layout and theme as I find it an interesting topic.

[grapen]

it can be frustrating to have a layout just shot down by people who only took one glance at it

*Takes a look for 2 minutes*: "Yeaaah too large and too many paths". While in reality, the map is about the same size as dust 2 with no more paths than mirage. Classic :-)

Been into level design for close to 20 years now, it never ends.

[text_fish]

It's true that most players can be infuriatingly narrow-minded (especially in the CS community) when it comes to new maps, but that should be embraced as part of the challenge of mapping.

The most common mistake I see most mappers make is that they get snowblind by their own design. Once you've put the time in to design, build and tweak a map you develop a metabolic familiarity with it that no other player in the world will probably ever experience, so it can be disconcerting and infuriating to watch other players lolloping around it for the first time. The most controversial of Cottons streamed "reviews" was undoubtedly for de_sparity, partly because of 3click's outspoken reaction, but mainly because it's a map that was developed very publicly, so a lot of its fans had also developed some of that designer snowblindness and couldn't appreciate Cottons criticisms. Personally I think most of what he said was spot on for that map. Considering the number of maps he had to get through I think he was remarkably fair and diligent, and thankfully he wasn't the only judge.

When we playtest new layouts on the mapcore server, the first thing I look out for is whether one or either team adopts any sort of coherent strategy on the first round of each half. If they don't, the level designer has failed, in my opinion. It may be harsh to write a layout off so quickly, but that's what most players will do (simply because there are more maps out there than anybody has the time to enjoy) so that's the attitude you have to design for.

[laminutederire]

Maybe the theme helps selling the map, but it is also extremely dangerous, because if it is the only thing that motivates players to pl, You'll have to detail your map enough to make any layout change very painful and, you'll be less likely to do everything you should to correct the layout, because it would mean waste too many time of detailing. This is why, the primitive state is the one that should be tested the more extensively, and it is the one which the less tested.

But changes with a stubborn community will through a few map makers rather than maps. By remaking classic maps which were around for years, FMPONE has earned the trust of the community, and it is part of why his new map, which he built from scratch will be probably much more accepted than a loooot of our maps thanks to that. And the maps of these mappers should be broadening minds of some.

On another note, if feedback is often non extensive, it is mainly because too many people want feedback for their own projects, and don't really care about other projects, leading in a lack of feedback for everyone, but that is mostly a cultural feat I guess.

[P1g3oN]

My bet for the 4 finalists are Kharkov, Empire, Abyss and Cargo.

I am pretty sure Coast will make it to the final 4.

[crowbAr]

FMPONE is one of the judges isn't he? I couldn't think of anyone else who fits better for this job. He knows about artstyle AND gameplay and more importantly how both of these things have to work together to make a great map and I think he is really open-minded.

Really, CS:GO would be a worse game without FMPONE.

Edited September 2, 2015 by crowbAr

[laminutederire]

Guest judges will be great at their job I think, they can replace pros and the community with their judgements

[leplubodeslapin]

I'm way more confident in this contest judging than in cevo-gamebanana's contest judges !

In cevo-gamebanana contests, it seems that cevo was doing a job that i personaly dislike. Looking at 3kliksphilip video about cevo review disturbs me. I don't think the map is perfect, i see lots of flaws in its design but i can feel the disappointment from 3kliksphilip. I just can't stand this kind of self-appointed "pro" judge that thinks that, because he's good at the game, knows lots in game and level design. The worst is when he tries to analyse and judge the aesthetics ... my gad just shut up, it's so much not something you're supposed to analyse and judge from a list of criterias, it feels so wrong ...

On the other side, Gamebanana's judges were also supposed to be part of this but we never heard from them, even if i'd have given them a lot more credit into the judging. Just this stupid 15 mins walk from Cotton and his friend on the map, it's really wrong.

 

I'm sure Vivi, Puddy, Rzl, Fmpone and Sprony will do a much better job. Some of them have been into these mapping contests and know what it is to be judged.

It seems that there are way too many entrances to give everyone a proper feedback, I don't know how it is going to be done

[text_fish]

thinks that, because he's good at the game, knows lots in game and level design.

But you don't have to be an expert on game design to know when it works and when it doesn't.

Just the same way you don't have to know how to play wind instruments to know that this is bad flute:

 

[leplubodeslapin]

You don't have to be good at something to know when it's bad yes, ok.
But when you're a judge at a contest like this one, you don't just have to put away the "not good enough maps", you have to find the best ones and rank them. And from my opinion, you must be able to explain your choice. That's the big difference between a player and someone that actually knows how a design is make, the player will just be able to say what he likes and dislikes while the level designer will be able to give a lot more reasons and justifications to its judging.

[text_fish]

I get that, but I don't think Cotton failed to meet that criteria. There's got to be a shortlisting process when you have hundreds of submissions to go through and some of them will have to get short shrift.

Ultimately I think Cotton's mistake was in being the only judge to make his process transparent. This lead to people assuming that (a) he was the only/main judge and (b) that the streamed part was the only stage of the process. He got an unfair rap if you ask me.

[Lizard]

But you don't have to be an expert on game design to know when it works and when it doesn't.

Just the same way you don't have to know how to play wind instruments to know that this is bad flute:

 

I will disagree on this. As you can see on workshop, shitty aim_ maps are often more popular than super polished maps. Players that don't know how much you can squeeze from source engine will think differently.