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laminutederire

Modern themed map [CS:GO]

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That's just what the game becomes at higher levels you even get plays like that in MM :P

Don't design for this because this is players pushing the map design to its limits...try and design for this and you'll end up with a mess. If flaws are found after the map is released (These are only ever found after heavy playtesting with a wide player base) then you have amend to fix the flaws. Simple as that :)

 

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That's just what the game becomes at higher levels you even get plays like that in MM :P

Don't design for this because this is players pushing the map design to its limits...try and design for this and you'll end up with a mess. If flaws are found after the map is released (These are only ever found after heavy playtesting with a wide player base) then you have amend to fix the flaws. Simple as that :)

 

yeah but good players during playtest don't try that too much, so you cannot know how it'll play with this style :)

I'm far from release, I like better the new configuration of bombsites but mid feels still a bit shaky, so I'm gathering all the feedback I can for now :) (even if it is a bit dead on here since esl one has started :P )

My B chokepoint feel to me like B on Cobblestone, don't know if it is good though ^^

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Don't design your layout with the top 1 % in mind. If the level is accepted by the normal community (without extreme exploits) some people will take the map and play it competetively, if that happens you'll see all types of exploits/tactics emerge. It is then up to you if you want to patch these out or if you think that it enhances the depth of the map :)

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Don't design your layout with the top 1 % in mind. If the level is accepted by the normal community (without extreme exploits) some people will take the map and play it competetively, if that happens you'll see all types of exploits/tactics emerge. It is then up to you if you want to patch these out or if you think that it enhances the depth of the map :)

if I use the feedback provided here, I should design the map for the top 25-50% players, since there are not really bad players on playtests for instance!

in the meantime I don't know what to change, no bots have ever arrived to the bombsite at the right time because they are all so fucking dumb... but I don't know if it is a symptom of a too long rotation time, or if it is solely the result of them running around T spawn then taking the longest route to the other bombsite, then taking the longest rotation path and arriving in the last 10-5 seconds..

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if I use the feedback provided here, I should design the map for the top 25-50% players, since there are not really bad players on playtests for instance!

in the meantime I don't know what to change, no bots have ever arrived to the bombsite at the right time because they are all so fucking dumb... but I don't know if it is a symptom of a too long rotation time, or if it is solely the result of them running around T spawn then taking the longest route to the other bombsite, then taking the longest rotation path and arriving in the last 10-5 seconds..

Top 25-50% sounds better, even though you can probably go even higher.

As for bots, don't use them as a reference on rotation times, they never run with their knife out and never take the fastest route. Run around yourself with your knife out, time the rotation from one area to another and try to get a picture of how the map will play by yourself :)

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Top 25-50% sounds better, even though you can probably go even higher.

As for bots, don't use them as a reference on rotation times, they never run with their knife out and never take the fastest route. Run around yourself with your knife out, time the rotation from one area to another and try to get a picture of how the map will play by yourself :)

I don't know there are players like me who broaden the range of players on mapcore :) but I am one of the rare silver elite master to have headshot high ranked players during playtests :P

Problem is that I am happy with everything excepting mid which need a revamp to play better, and a minor change to main B, but that aside I really don't know what to change :(

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I don't know there are players like me who broaden the range of players on mapcore :) but I am one of the rare silver elite master to have headshot high ranked players during playtests :P

Problem is that I am happy with everything excepting mid which need a revamp to play better, and a minor change to main B, but that aside I really don't know what to change :(

Can you give us an updated overview of the current layout? 

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Don't design your map for anyone. It makes no sense if only a certain section of the player base can play it. Make cool stuff that has depth, think about areas where people can set up smokes and flashes, to allow for tactical plays but if you don't want to throw the smokes or flashes, you don't have to but you will be punished due to exposing yourself to many angles at once and potentially being shot in the side/back while taking an engagement. Make it fun and have depth, and a meta will develop around this (three smoke mirage A take for example). You cannot really predict this meta as you cannot predict every way a player will play your level, you can only guess at a few and make an area play how you want (for example whether you want aggressive CT play to viable in certain areas or not).

Edited by DooM

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Can you give us an updated overview of the current layout? 

Fudge, I thought I put it in the last update post^^

There you go:

PXNp7o4.jpg

And @DooM, i opened spaces to allow many possible nades, I'm not worrying about them being exploited :)

currently I am reworking mid by closing lower mid chokepoint which leads to too easy flanking. That way I can lower walls blocking view from upper to lower mid because that won't lead to over powered positions anymore. In the process I'll widden upper, replace the ramp from T side to make them single boost up there instead. I will also change the b long wall which originally was there to prevent sniping from B on mid, but that way, they will snipe only people going to B.

Edited by laminutederire

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Major Update!

I reworked mid and adjusted timings for B a little, as well as placing the drop zone in the T's mid for more effective and "safer" rotation.

Overview:

de_3_radar.thumb.jpg.ee08bb6cc5c2bb0a3f0

Timing table:

For Ts

  • T spawn to A via long: 18,5
  • T spawn to A via short: 13,5
  • T spawn to A via drop zone: 16
  • T spawn to A via mid: 11,5
  • T spawn to B via main:14
  • T spawn to B via mid:13

For CTs

  • CT spawn to A via direct route: 6,5
  • CT spawn to A via mid: 8
  • CT spawn to B via direct route: 7,5
  • CT spawn to B via mid: 8

Rotation Times

  • A to B via CT spawn: 14
  • A to B via mid connectors: 10,7

 

Screenshots and .bsp:

I figured I should post the imgur link instead of posting them here in spoilers, more easy to read for everyone. I'm putting comments and explanations of changes on there :)

Link for .bsp file

Thanks in advance for any feedback provided :)

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Well, I've reached a status quo, I don't know what to change anymore, but I feel a playtest will be a failure again, so I don't know what I'm going to do with this. In fact, each change I have been testing for the past week was making things worse to play. So if anyone has something to say I'm happy to hear it, otherwise I'll stop working on it for a few weeks to see if I succeed in making it better then. Thank you for taking the time to read all this at least!

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Based on the playtest feedback, I think I should rework mid. That will be the first way to adress flanking, I want to make it easier for T's to hold their end of mid, so as to avoid Ct's rushing in there willy nelly. Also, this is an attempt to make the chokepoint more obvious and more interesting to play, as well as fix the verticality issues in mid. I haven't touched hammer yet, but I'll do that when I'll have good ideas on paper for every changes I need to do (not only for mid, but the whole map).

Here's my proposal for mid in hand drawings, with my explainations:

This an "overview". The idea is to widden this area, add cover in the middle of mid for T's, a bit like on Mirage, to help T's progress and hold angles. The inner areas in red are going to be elevated more to the level of the rest, that'd show that there are two distinct path, while having only a gap of 60 units top (would be a jump reach). connectors for Ct's would be modified a bit to break some angles, and conserve a reasonable rotation time, which would be the same as before after tweakings.

SLxolke.jpg

two views of T side:

First one is from the entrance, at the left of the cover. the angle to cover is the entrance 1. Indeed if you can see a Ct on the left, he's basically on the middle of nowhere without any cover. The second one shows the view from the roght of the cover, where a player can hold the angle on the entrance 2, while not being vulnerable from entrance 1.

ORN1vnU.jpgsR59sK4.jpg

view from Ct side:

at the left is the corner or entrance 1, and in the right the one from entrance 2 where they can peek dangerously because the wall wouldn't be at a right angle there. however if they fall back they have advantageous angles, to prevent easy take of mid control for T's. This drawing shows where the T's could play.

A6ibAeK.jpg

view to show the new elevation:

l5zSMH7.jpg

I hope you'll endulge me my poor drafting skills, and feel free to tell me if you think it's not a good idea, or if it isn't an interesting chokepoint, or if you like that idea! thanks in advance!

Link for ingame screenshots: imgur

Edited by laminutederire
Edit: upon several demands I blocked it out

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Huge update!

New overview:

0K8V3CV.jpg

What has changed?

The post above explained the expected changes for mid, and here they are, I'll let screens speak for themselves:

APw0480.jpgyH9NfQT.jpgMHp9Mub.jpgrUBZAZj.jpgHppAivj.jpgVaGHPmr.jpg

During the process of simplification, I reworked connectors a bit and I removed a path which only was used as a flanking path.

B main for T's has especially changed much:

M1SnoTD.jpg

this process has led to a complete redesign of b which was much disliked, so it was a win win.

I decided to restrain the upper areas to a window, which sight of line has been worked so that it isn't too overpowered. T's have two options, smoke their way into the plant and only focusing on window, or they can push through the sort of split, to have cover from windows and battle for the site in lower areas. on site I placed only one cover, which is easily molotoved or flashed, so that it isn't used as a camping spot. In images:

1VmdpHv.jpgHf9KYAL.jpgHAYhBqa.jpgPdjzZ7f.jpg2taGnSX.jpg

Finally the next big change has been the A from T side. It has now its split way earlier, before chokepoints. There are now two distincts paths: the initial chokepoint which is the fastest and hardest path of the two, and the second one, giving a slight advantage for T's, which is weighing against an extra time to get on site. 19 seconds against 11 for short. I don't know if it is too much, I think I can reduce this time to probably 15-16, would that be better?

Any insights about the pertinence of these changes would be appreciated.

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Major Update:

the map is called de_modern, at least for now.

New overview:

T12CC52.jpg

Imgur album of last changes

Mid has been totally redone

A site:

-Drop to A has its entry as a split on A main.

-The bombplant has been put in another corner of the site

B site:

-B main is now going through mid and a useless path has been deleted

-The chokepoint has been redone to avoid headpeaks and so on.

-plant zone has been extended into the hiding spot and a bit more outside.

General changes:

-Verticality reworked to avoid steep ramps everywhere.

-camping spots and hiding places have been simplified, so that there are less places to check.

-overall areas have been enlarged.

-Long sightlines have been for most of them been controlled and mostly shortened.

Link for the Bsp file

Link to Imgur album

Thanks for reading :)

Edited by laminutederire

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based on early feedback I decided to removed the Ct to B path so that they go through the mid connector. In that effect the second rotation is now 18 sec long and is through mid and T path. Structure of B itself has changed a bit because the hiding spot was too redundant. A self boost at the drop zone is now replaced, and the timings have been tweaked a bit.

new overview:

2015-10-16_00001.thumb.jpg.4e3b14392da2e

Bsp link

 

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