Modern themed map [CS:GO]

[laminutederire]

Hi, I started a new map with what I think is a more classic layout.

visually it is crap, but hey, it is a sort of greybox stage so that's okay. I want to get the layout right before anything else.

Here's the overview:

Here's the overview with bot_show_battlefront 1. I intended to make teams battle before A for the two entries to A. These give a huge advantage to take the bombsite, so there is something interesting to fight for. Connectors for T's to go in Ct's connectors are one way falls (with a bit of health damage to even the advantage). B is accessible with two entries, one self boost and a two man boost, it makes it harder to take. I tried a two battle front mid, don't know too much how it will play though.

album 1

album 2

tell me if anything you want as feedback! Thanks in advance!

[laminutederire]

Since I don't know what to change for the layout I am starting to find a style for the map :

 

is it a good start?

Edited August 19, 2015 by laminutederire

[laminutederire]

Unlike your first project this genuinely looks like a CS:GO map from the radar, this is very big step in the right direction and I glad you decided to restart with the things you learned. Your layout creation skills can finally develop since you have a genuine map, I'm not going to critique it, but to answer your question: yes it is.

 

P.S. I really hope you did this in Hammer.

I need some critics because I don't know what to change yet about the layout. And while waiting I'm starting to work on the style, and the more I work on it the harder it'll get to change the layout so have at it, and I can provide the BSP if needed!

(and thanks, I take it as a compliment!)

[jackophant]

You've got a pretty brutal sight line going through what I presume to be T spawn at the top.

You have a lot of walls which look like AK, if not AWP fire could penetrate them.

Your contact points for both bombsites are very aggressive, especially for the left bombsite which is massively aggressive.

One-way drops are a bit gimmicky, and having two, especially inflicting fall damage is a little much.

I really think you need to relax your chase of this modern style. While it does look a lot better, I think you're limiting yourself. You should crack out a full greybox and settle for theme after as I still feel there's far too much being left to the imagination.

I'll message you some suggestions I gave someone else regarding concepts for the layout

[laminutederire]

You've got a pretty brutal sight line going through what I presume to be T spawn at the top.

You have a lot of walls which look like AK, if not AWP fire could penetrate them.

Your contact points for both bombsites are very aggressive, especially for the left bombsite which is massively aggressive.

One-way drops are a bit gimmicky, and having two, especially inflicting fall damage is a little much.

I really think you need to relax your chase of this modern style. While it does look a lot better, I think you're limiting yourself. You should crack out a full greybox and settle for theme after as I still feel there's far too much being left to the imagination.

I'll message you some suggestions I gave someone else regarding concepts for the layout

The sightline is cut by the descending alley.

These walls are placeholder covers, so I'll make them thicker when needed, I'll have to check but few are thin enough to let AK bullet pass through though.

What do you mean by aggressive?

One way drops were a way to allow rotation options for T's while not allowing flanking for CT's. But I think that I should remove the right one, but the left one is in my opinion essential as it provides a faster rotation for T's and can allow some flanking option for T's even if CT's still have a huge advantage since they know easily if a flank is happening if they hold mid at least decently.

I'll change elevations a bit to remove fall damage though!

Ahah I went a bit full retard on details at some places since I was waiting on feedback. Easily removable though

Timing chart:

Edited August 18, 2015 by laminutederire

[Vaya]

I have no idea whats going on on that timing chart. do I need to use Pythagoras's theorem to get the timings from that? It's the timings to the site that matter, not the other teams' spawn.

[laminutederire]

colors are supposed to be the communication hint^^ spawn to spawn through mid is an indicator of the scale since it is almost a straight line through all the level. in blue and gold are the timings for rotation which are important. What matters is that someone pointed me inthe direction that rotation are too long so I'm pushing another version with reduced rotation times

[jackophant]

We still aren't sure what the rotation times are though. If you can fill these in for me it would be great  im going to go on the basis that left bombsite is A and right site is B, and I mean the timing to the actual planting area, not line of sight, because that could be as short as Nuke blue hut to bombsite A, or as long as Dust2 A long, it's not a good measure. Please quote this and remove rest of text with answers to below:

For Ts

• T spawn to A via long:
• T spawn to A via short:
• T spawn to A via drop zone:
• T spawn to A via mid:
• T spawn to B via main:
• T spawn to B via drop zone:
• T spawn to B via mid:

For CTs

• CT spawn to A via direct route:
• CT spawn to A via mid:
• CT spawn to B via direct route:
• CT spawn to B via mid:

Rotation Times

• A to B via CT spawn:
• A to B via mid connectors:

We don't need halfway points, or spawn to spawn times, or around the world trips, just the direct routes which I have listed. They're as food for us to know as you. Right now I don't think you have a clear enough image of your own map which is essential in progressing in the right direction.

When I said aggressive earlier, I meant that CTs had enough time to push way beyond the bombsite and hold it comfortably without any real risk, especially for what I've labelled as A. It's reminiscent of inferno, but that works because the bombsite is so close to it, you have another long trek to get there so Ts don't really have any where to setup how to access the site when they need to confront the massively aggressive CTs.

[laminutederire]

For Ts

• T spawn to A via long:20
• T spawn to A via short:19
• T spawn to A via drop zone:21
• T spawn to A via mid:12.3
• T spawn to B via main:16.5
• T spawn to B via mid:13

For CTs

• CT spawn to A via direct route:6.5
• CT spawn to A via mid: 10.6
• CT spawn to B via direct route:9.5
• CT spawn to B via mid:11

Rotation Times

• A to B via CT spawn: 14.6
• A to B via mid connectors: 14.3

here are the timings

it was intended, because the idea was that having the control of that part of the map give very different possibilities to attack the bombsite, and gives a great advantage over the bombsite, but if CT's push too agressively the can be flanked through mid or T's have a powerful rotation that can push them into a bad situation.

In addition T's have the advantage to be able to snipe the choke point before CT's arrive, giving a way to punish them if they are too aggressive.

Edited August 18, 2015 by laminutederire
I tweaked B main a bit to reduce the time necessary

[laminutederire]

i tried something new:

 

It gives the following timings with spawns a little different than before:

For Ts

• T spawn to A via long:18
• T spawn to A via short:15,5
• T spawn to A via drop zone:16
• T spawn to A via mid:13,4
• T spawn to B via main:16
• T spawn to B via mid:14

For CTs

• CT spawn to A via direct route: 5,4
• CT spawn to A via mid: 10,3
• CT spawn to B via direct route:9
• CT spawn to B via mid: 10

Rotation Times

• A to B via CT spawn: 14.6
• A to B via mid connectors: 14.3

Chokepoints are at the same place approximately but now it acts more as a long range choke point, where T snipers arrive first on the chokepoint, still to punish pushing Ct's. This change make the chokepoint exit more closer to the bombsite. Time and tests will show if it is still too aggressive, but to me it acts as double door at long in dust2, Ct's can either push it agressively, then t's have the advantage, or stay back next to the bombsite and defend it from within. if the realisation isn't close enough to what's intented let me know!

Screenshots of changes:

-view from T spawn:

  -new path to A:

  -I moved a bit Ct B entrance:

  -view of B chokepoint:

from Ct side

from T side

  -added a nade window:

  -reworked connector:

  -other nade window between mid and connector:

  -reworked B long a bit:

Edited August 19, 2015 by laminutederire

[jackophant]

Is the BSP available anywhere to play? I think I need to see this for myself but the layout does look better.

Also, that last picture, your brushes aren't aligned properly. Make sure you have grid snapping on (shortcut toggle = shift+w), or your grid is around 32 units to make sure this doesn't happen.

I still don't understand what is going on with your lighting.

Edited August 19, 2015 by jackophant

[laminutederire]

Is the BSP available anywhere to play? I think I need to see this for myself but the layout does look better.

Also, that last picture, your brushes aren't aligned properly. Make sure you have grid snapping on (shortcut toggle = shift+w), or your grid is around 32 units to make sure this doesn't happen.

I still don't understand what is going on with your lighting.

ohyeah haven't seen that, just made changes too fast and grid was like at 4 or 2 this time, and I must have missaligned things! I'll fix that. (Edit: I checked the vmf and wall thickness are just differents )

Lighting seem too bright but I think I mainly haven't got the best angle, because I have the same lighting parameters than in valve's sky list.

here is the link for the bsp

Edited August 19, 2015 by laminutederire

[jackophant]

You have a lot of tall walls/buildings. Not everywhere has to be like that.

[laminutederire]

You have a lot of tall walls/buildings. Not everywhere has to be like that.

I know, they are either placeholders to simplify the skybox closing or tall walls to block visibility and boost spots. I'll change all that with detailing.

What's wrong with the map other than that?

[jackophant]

well, the only thing you've got right now is a layout and it issues. The chokepoints for your bombsites are still way beyond the bombsite, and are still multiple rooms away. Your timings are still quite large.

For reference, you should load up some official maps and time how long it takes to get to each bombsite as each team.