Wall Worm Wants YOU and your pretty maps

[shawnolson]

Warning: Wall Of Text being condensed...

 

Everyone has loved Source, hated Source... loved Hammer, Hated Hammer... etc. Skipping rest of blah blah.

 

So Wall Worm has allowed everyone to build levels for Source inside 3ds Max for a while now. And it's about to enter a new phase with the addition of Wall Worm Pro. If you want to know what that is, go read about Wall Worm Pro on the Wall Worm website.

 

One of the things that's bothered me for a few years now is how angry the Source community gets whenever I talk about using Max for Source level design. I get it... because I am also defensive about the tools I love too.

 

Most of the reasons people give me about why you should not use Max and should use hammer is BS. 99% of it is. Really, the only valid reasons I can think of is familiarity and proficiency (and cost if you are unable to use the educational versions of Max and don't already own Max). That's it. If you know 3ds Max and Wall Worm intimately, there are infinite opportunities that Max presents that just don't exist in Hammer. But if you are familiar with Hammer and not Max... well it can be daunting. I understand that.

 

So I'm trying to get some more people interested in learning how to use Max as a Source level editor by launching a level design contest. The first contest is Amazing Desert. There are several mods you can map for as long as it fits the contest theme and rules. The contest has some prizes (various commercial Wall Worm plugins like Wall Worm Pro and CorVex). I wish I could offer more... but that's all I can offer right now.

 

All submissions must be in by Midnight (12pm EST) of February 28, 2015. Winner will be announced on the Ides of March (March 15, 2015).

 

At this time the judges are Rick Underhill and myself. I am petitioning a couple of my other contacts to also help judge.

 

I hope that this entices some of you to learn some of the tools in Wall Worm and how exciting it is to build levels in Max. I have tried to share some of the possibilities with the community but I'm often torn between developing WW, making a living, helping the community, documenting WW, promoting, etc... and it's really a lot to cover on my own (the WW development team actually now includes another developer named Orvid King, so that helps). But obviously all the effort has not gotten the kind of interest in the level design tools that I really want to foster. I hope that some of you talented folks will take a look at the contest and share some of your creativity and talents.

 

I am always happy to answer questions on using the tools. And I promise that if there isn't a way to do something cool you think of, I will think long and hard on ways to help you accomplish it. I've added almost every feature anyone has asked for in Wall Worm in the last 4+ years. And now I hope you join in on it all.

[Black_Stormy]

That deadline is extremely tight considering you have people trying to learn a new tool while competing. A month and a bit is just not enough. Stretch it out to 3 or 4 months and you might have a better turn out.

[FMPONE]

I don't think the issue with adoption of something like Wall Worm boils down to people being defensive about what tool set they use. I think the problem is that learning anything new (say, moving beyond Hammer to make maps in Max) is just another thing to add to the to-do list pile for people who are already overloaded trying to ship content.

 

You could argue that learning the new skills would help them ship more content, but again it's not defensiveness it's prioritization, which I think is important to clarify. If people had all the time in the world I'm sure great tools would all get more use. I would also say that offering premium use of tools for using said tools in your contest is a bit cyclical and unlikely to affect much change, cash would probably be more effective frankly.

[shawnolson]

Hey guys. I should have left the comments out above. They are a result of various frustrations that I'm dealing with regarding the efforts in WW. My expressions is mainly a result of the mass of responses I've gotten via many avenues for several years. In essence, far more people are anti-Max for Source level design based on bad assumptions or poor information. Of course there are many that just aren't familiar with Max and don't have the time to learn something new, but I know from the volume of communications, this is the minority, especially with the amateur landscape. I try to be immune, but after 500 14 year olds sending me emails, IMs or forum flaming about how something is stupid... it can boil over

 

I may extend the contest if it seems prudent, Stormy. Part of my rationale is showing how you can build levels far faster in Max... but it does entail you already know Max/WW.

 

Shawn, offering cash would be something I'd do if my wife wouldn't shoot me. The tools are a fair gift, in my opinion. The contest is to get people to try using Max and the general free WW tools. Of course my long term goals are to get people interested in the Max environment enough that they end up buying the commercial tools more. This will help lessen the frustrations I deal with the giant world of 14 year-olds and their flames ... and will also help lessen the possibility that my wife will shoot me in general.

 

I intend to release some new docs and videos showing various new tools and workflows as soon as I'm done adding DMX into WW this week.

[cashed]

Not only that but 3dsmax costs money for a license. Hammer is free with hl2

[soultron]

I might give this a go. I'm more comfortable with Max from prototyping layouts and placeholder models during my dayjob already, so this seems like a great excuse. I do agree that the timeline does seem a bit daunting. 

I'm sure many people will say they could ship a map by the date you've suggested (might not look or run great though, depending on the person), but I personally worry about the necessary buffer time allotment for playtesting and iteration, custom asset creation (start to finish), and optimization.

Edited January 21, 2015 by soultron

[shawnolson]

I might give this a go. I'm more comfortable with Max from prototyping layouts and placeholder models during my dayjob already, so this seems like a great excuse. I do agree that the timeline does seem a bit daunting. 

I'm sure many people will say they could ship a map by the date you've suggested (might not look or run great though, depending on the person), but I personally worry about the necessary buffer time allotment for playtesting and iteration, custom asset creation (start to finish), and optimization.

I will definitely consider extending if the participants generally feel its necessary. I'm going to try and put out some new videos that will help explain some features and techniques this week that might lessen the design burdens.

 

Also, from the increased users testing the level design tools and providing feedback, I've found and fixed some bugs that will help anyone trying to migrate a project from Source to Max. The VMF/Map importer should no longer have the occasional bad brush or incorrect UV in the latest version of WW. We also found and fixed some major issues with running WW on Max 2012. Still, strongly urge users to use Max 2015+... so much faster and nicer.

[shawnolson]

Just some updates for those playing around in Max. There was an update this morning to fix the broken texture exporter. There was a problem in the VTF exporter if WW Pro isn't installed... the exporter kept thinking that all bitmaps had invalid dimensions. That problem is now fixed.

[shawnolson]

The contest has been extended to March 31. I hope to see some of you get interested in it.

[unremarkable player]

Any chance you could extend this so say... Blender?? A lot of people who model for hammer use blender. Avoids the many $$$'sands they have to spend to purchase software they can essentially get for free (albeit, Maya and 3DSM are a pretty long way ahead of Blender in film, but it does the job just fine)

Edited February 28, 2015 by kermy

[shawnolson]

Any chance you could extend this so say... Blender?? A lot of people who model for hammer use blender. Avoids the many $$$'sands they have to spend to purchase software they can essentially get for free (albeit, Maya and 3DSM are a pretty long way ahead of Blender in film, but it does the job just fine)

Blender is certainly a great free asset to the world of creativity. I'm glad it exists, and that it continues to grow. But it just isn't my cup of tea. The only reason WW has gotten to the point it has is because of my own personal passion for using it inside my darling 3ds Max. I don't have the resources (time, incentive) to make a Blender version. I've been using Max for 15 years. My incentive was the fact that I love both Source and 3ds Max, which gave me the reason to make time for it. And it took those years of using Max to get to where I understood enough about Max to start WW with any kind of sanity; and once started, it's been a 4-year education into MAXScript, linear algebra, application quirks and "customer" support. For me to make time for Blender would be like spending years to train and teach your beloved champion Golden Retriever, but suddenly stop all interaction with it and suddenly take all your money, time and dog food to feed and groom the neighbor's dog instead--and do it while your heart is yearning to take your own dog for walks.

[laminutederire]

How hard would it be to have a version of your software that could work without 3ds max?

Since Blender can export .3ds, it could be useful to convert in .3ds then into .vmf.

Pardon me if it is a stupid question I'm not a genius in software development!

[Guni]

I am of the target market that has only used Hammer, and although I know hammer quite well i wouldn't say im stubborn in exploring other software. Rather, and i think it was mentioned before, it is more so the time and effort required to "aquire" 3ds max and the plugin, and then learn it (Laziness). Of-course i also think there are limitations when it does have a rather "Pay to play" business model, opposed to Hammer which is provided free with a rather easy to use interface and larger community.


Saying this, do you find a common limitation when reaching out to people with 3ds Max? Is the cost, effort and alternate software all hurdles that have come up time and time again? I am just curious why you would go for an option that is harder to put into the hands of your average user. I really like that you've developed from the ground up, and I can see you are extremely passionate about 3dsMax and WW, but for me personally, I think the time and effort spent would not merit the outcome.



On Topic: I look forward to seeing the entrants submissions in this competition and seeing what WW is capable of. Maybe I'll be put in my place and end up 'acquiring' a copy of 3ds.

[shawnolson]

How hard would it be to have a version of your software that could work without 3ds max?

Since Blender can export .3ds, it could be useful to convert in .3ds then into .vmf.

Pardon me if it is a stupid question I'm not a genius in software development!

It would be harder than you think. There is a lot of logic in all the WW tools tied to how 3ds Max works internally. And there is nothing in WW that deals with .3ds files (which is an old format that isn't actually what 3ds Max uses). WW doesn't work directly on file formats except in terms of importing/exporting between Max and Source. So, for example, WW doesn't convert a VMF to a file format--instead, it imports the VMF data to create Geometry inside Max, or to export it takes scene geometry and exports to VMF.

 

I am of the target market that has only used Hammer, and although I know hammer quite well i wouldn't say im stubborn in exploring other software. Rather, and i think it was mentioned before, it is more so the time and effort required to "aquire" 3ds max and the plugin, and then learn it (Laziness). Of-course i also think there are limitations when it does have a rather "Pay to play" business model, opposed to Hammer which is provided free with a rather easy to use interface and larger community.

Saying this, do you find a common limitation when reaching out to people with 3ds Max? Is the cost, effort and alternate software all hurdles that have come up time and time again? I am just curious why you would go for an option that is harder to put into the hands of your average user. I really like that you've developed from the ground up, and I can see you are extremely passionate about 3dsMax and WW, but for me personally, I think the time and effort spent would not merit the outcome.

On Topic: I look forward to seeing the entrants submissions in this competition and seeing what WW is capable of. Maybe I'll be put in my place and end up 'acquiring' a copy of 3ds.

Pay to Play isn't really an issue. The majority of students and hobbyists can get Max for free directly from Autodesk Education Center. The hurdles I generally face are lack of education. The internet likes to regurgitate untrue facts forever. I still see people say that you can't use Max for Source levels or that there is no SMD exporters for Max 2015, etc. Apparently, the skill to use Google is only learned by people older than 30.

[FRAG]

 

Pay to Play isn't really an issue. The majority of students and hobbyists can get Max for free directly from Autodesk Education Center. The hurdles I generally face are lack of education. The internet likes to regurgitate untrue facts forever. I still see people say that you can't use Max for Source levels or that there is no SMD exporters for Max 2015, etc. Apparently, the skill to use Google is only learned by people older than 30.

 

 

And with that last part, you lost me, sorry but now you're sounding off untrue facts.

 

It's great you've done this and yeah you really believe in your toolset because you have a passion for 3DS Max, but we all use the Hammer editor, it's what we have learnt to use for years to craft our worlds, if someone has prior knowledge of Max then I'm sure they will be interested in WW as it does look really useful, but you will find that is not the majority, I should know, I've been floating around for 13 years myself and all I ever saw was XSI or blender being the go to tools for hobbyists as they didn't cost anything above maybe a pint to a mate to get it all working for you.

 

Keep up good the work on WW.