[CS:GO] de_whitmoore

[DooM]

Huge improvements! I like the way you are going with the theme, however, try to stick a little bit "away" from Italy and Inferno themes.

Yeah I hope to get the map to look more like the reference images posted earlier. Thanks for the input!

[Mvllsk]

I'm just happy that you added the balcony to mid ^__^

Just one suggestion: Move the stairs for T mid/balcony either slightly to the left (with the entrance) or flip them.
At the moment, Ts that go up the stairs are completely exposed and mid feels a bit too beneficial for CTs.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Mvllsk

[DooM]

I'm just happy that you added the balcony to mid ^__^

Just one suggestion: Move the stairs for T mid/balcony either slightly to the left (with the entrance) or flip them.

At the moment, Ts that go up the stairs are completely exposed and mid feels a bit too beneficial for CTs.

I was thinking of moving them to be more where you come out of the other doorway to mid (t side) with the stairs facing the same direction, so the room is just flat but with stairs outside and metal maybe. Also was that your suggestion? If it was, great suggestion! I originally had it as three windows but I felt Ts couldn't rush.

 

[Mvllsk]

Yea, I'd suggest moving it towards the exit from T spawn anyways because currently CTs approach mid several seconds faster than Ts. 

 

Actually I have a few ideas. Keep in mind these are only suggestions.

I visualized everything to make it easier to explain. Please open this image along with the text below.

 

All times are the rounded average of several attempts. I categorized "left" and "right" spawn points and took pure running time with a knife from both areas.

 

Currently, Ts need 10 seconds to approach the staircase [a] (depending on their spawn +/- 1 second, assuming they use the respectively fastest route) while CTs that spawn to the right only need 5 to CT Mid . Also when jumping through the windows, CTs can get to the T mid house windows [c] via the vines just as fast as T would enter the room via the stairs (~12 secs) and they get to the opposite corner in mid [d] at the same time Ts would get to the entrance [a].

Move the stairs as you mentioned slightly towards the side (red).

Naturally, you could suggest to move T spawn closer but that would screw with the bombsite timing. As you can see, bombsite A has actually solid time difference. The issue with mid is also seen in B site. My first suggestion is therefore to move CT spawn slightly closer to the long corridor towards A (I will explain the reasoning to shorten the actually perfect time towards A in a bit) and move the area that connects mid and CT spawn slightly towards B so CTs cannot shoot from CT towards T mid house and also have 2 more seconds of a delay. This wont affect any other rotation timing.

 

Then, open up the entrance into B at B1 by cutting away the marked corner so it's no longer such a hard choke point. Then give Ts another entrance via a window or door at B long. The exit of it shouldnt be too far into the bomb site so CTs can still control both chokes from the B2 area but may no longer stack at the corners of B1. I can understand that you might have wanted a single entrance bomb site like B on dust2 for example. The issue for that theory would be that your map doesnt play like dust2. The mid area is way less accessible than dust2 and the rotation through mid is a lot longer for Ts. I therefore recommend two entrances for Ts into B but assuring both entrances are balanced and the one being a choke point just like A. No worries though, in theory, the bombsites shouldnt feel the same. B has still much shorter rotation times for CTs from mid and can also be easily pushed from behind by CTs that push through mid towards the T entrance to B.

 

A is much more isolated. You did change the long corridor, but I still feel like the bomb spot doesnt allow for too many moves for Ts. The corridor at A1 is very open, but that is okay. But currently, as a T, you cannot really support A1 from the squeeky A3. I therefore suggest adding a high ground to the purple marked area at A3 that can look above the door but not into the rest of the bombsite. Also you might wanna consider expanding the bombsite a bit by adding more corners and allowing for more strategic play and cover for both CTs and Ts. So the reason we move CT spawn towards A is not only to make the times towards B and Mid slightly more balanced, but also to assure that CTs can take positions in A as it is, opposed to B, a very closed in bomb spot.

 

Last idea would be adding a connector (green) for Ts for slightly faster rotation times from mid to A. This will not affect early plays too much but assures that Ts can show mid (retreive bomb, etc.) within the last 30 seconds and not automatically assure CTs that they will have to go for a B push.

The map might now feel a lot like Cache. A is compareable with A on Cache and for B it's the same but it should still be a very unique layout with interesting ideas that I hopefully could improve a bit.

E: I might have misplaced the spawns in the image a bit but you should see which ones I talk about.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Mvllsk

[DooM]

Yea, I'd suggest moving it towards the exit from T spawn anyways because currently CTs approach mid several seconds faster than Ts. 

 

Actually I have a few ideas. Keep in mind these are only suggestions.

I visualized everything to make it easier to explain. Please open this image along with the text below.

 

All times are the rounded average of several attempts. I categorized "left" and "right" spawn points and took pure running time with a knife from both areas.

 

Currently, Ts need 10 seconds to approach the staircase [a] (depending on their spawn +/- 1 second, assuming they use the respectively fastest route) while CTs that spawn to the right only need 5 to CT Mid . Also when jumping through the windows, CTs can get to the T mid house windows [c] via the vines just as fast as T would enter the room via the stairs (~12 secs) and they get to the opposite corner in mid [d] at the same time Ts would get to the entrance [a].

Move the stairs as you mentioned slightly towards the side (red).

Naturally, you could suggest to move T spawn closer but that would screw with the bombsite timing. As you can see, bombsite A has actually solid time difference. The issue with mid is also seen in B site. My first suggestion is therefore to move CT spawn slightly closer to the long corridor towards A (I will explain the reasoning to shorten the actually perfect time towards A in a bit) and move the area that connects mid and CT spawn slightly towards B so CTs cannot shoot from CT towards T mid house and also have 2 more seconds of a delay. This wont affect any other rotation timing.

 

Then, open up the entrance into B at B1 by cutting away the marked corner so it's no longer such a hard choke point. Then give Ts another entrance via a window or door at B long. The exit of it shouldnt be too far into the bomb site so CTs can still control both chokes from the B2 area but may no longer stack at the corners of B1. I can understand that you might have wanted a single entrance bomb site like B on dust2 for example. The issue for that theory would be that your map doesnt play like dust2. The mid area is way less accessible than dust2 and the rotation through mid is a lot longer for Ts. I therefore recommend two entrances for Ts into B but assuring both entrances are balanced and the one being a choke point just like A. No worries though, in theory, the bombsites shouldnt feel the same. B has still much shorter rotation times for CTs from mid and can also be easily pushed from behind by CTs that push through mid towards the T entrance to B.

 

A is much more isolated. You did change the long corridor, but I still feel like the bomb spot doesnt allow for too many moves for Ts. The corridor at A1 is very open, but that is okay. But currently, as a T, you cannot really support A1 from the squeeky A3. I therefore suggest adding a high ground to the purple marked area at A3 that can look above the door but not into the rest of the bombsite. Also you might wanna consider expanding the bombsite a bit by adding more corners and allowing for more strategic play and cover for both CTs and Ts. So the reason we move CT spawn towards A is not only to make the times towards B and Mid slightly more balanced, but also to assure that CTs can take positions in A as it is, opposed to B, a very closed in bomb spot.

 

Last idea would be adding a connector (green) for Ts for slightly faster rotation times from mid to A. This will not affect early plays too much but assures that Ts can show mid (retreive bomb, etc.) within the last 30 seconds and not automatically assure CTs that they will have to go for a B push.

The map might now feel a lot like Cache. A is compareable with A on Cache and for B it's the same but it should still be a very unique layout with interesting ideas that I hopefully could improve a bit.

E: I might have misplaced the spawns in the image a bit but you should see which ones I talk about.

Great feedback! I moved the stairs last night to be something more like this:

[Mvllsk]

After the playtest I can say that the map definitely improved a lot. A few things I and other people noticed:

- The entrance to B is too wide now. Instead of the big chip into the corner, make it a lot less drastic, maybe chose to make both corners for the main entrance round.
- Change the door in B to a window and raise the hallway (add a staircase). That prevents CTs from rushing around and stopping Ts early from two angles. Still alow it to be boostable just to enable a surprise play by CTs. Also reduces the amount of easy afterplant positions for Ts.

- Add more and smaller cover to B. Also replace some of the cover so CTs can more efficiently hold the angles for B main and B window/door.

My suggestions for changes to B summed up.

- Mid seemed fine. Some people wanted an easier way to smoke off both directions. I recommend adding a big box (climable for Ts) with a tilted sign or board on top so Ts can smoke around the corner easily and climb the box to get more vision into mid. Kinda like this.

- Open up the CT mid to A connector a bit (the narrow corridor).

- Replace rocket crates in A with different objects. Add light to A main corridor with natural light (ceiling opening).

- Make A long more versatile and less exposed.
- Increase cover for Ts that come into A, raise a wall so CTs cannot snipe from the back of A into the T main corridor. Also vice versa, dont allow Ts to fall all the way back and still have vision onto the bomb when planted underneath the arch.

 

 

Next step once the layout stands will be making the many corridors feel less blant by adding life and a theme to them. I'm sure you have something in mind, but I'd suggest going for one color/texture scheme for the area around A and the corridors that lead to the bomb spot and a fitting but differentiated theme for B and the area infront of B main and the area around ct spawn to B.

 

I'm looking forward to further improvements. As you might be able to tell, I'm quite confident that this map can be a great one.

[Nakroma]

- Change the door in B to a window and raise the hallway (add a staircase). That prevents CTs from rushing around and stopping Ts early from two angles. Still alow it to be boostable just to enable a surprise play by CTs. Also reduces the amount of easy afterplant positions for Ts.

 

Altough your idea is really good and you have a good point regarding the T, in the playtesting I really enjoyed the door. So maybe find a way to artificaly increase the timing / block the sightline and leave the door?

[DooM]

After the playtest I can say that the map definitely improved a lot. A few things I and other people noticed:

- The entrance to B is too wide now. Instead of the big chip into the corner, make it a lot less drastic, maybe chose to make both corners for the main entrance round.

- Change the door in B to a window and raise the hallway (add a staircase). That prevents CTs from rushing around and stopping Ts early from two angles. Still alow it to be boostable just to enable a surprise play by CTs. Also reduces the amount of easy afterplant positions for Ts.

- Add more and smaller cover to B. Also replace some of the cover so CTs can more efficiently hold the angles for B main and B window/door.

My suggestions for changes to B summed up.

- Mid seemed fine. Some people wanted an easier way to smoke off both directions. I recommend adding a big box (climable for Ts) with a tilted sign or board on top so Ts can smoke around the corner easily and climb the box to get more vision into mid. Kinda like this.

- Open up the CT mid to A connector a bit (the narrow corridor).

- Replace rocket crates in A with different objects. Add light to A main corridor with natural light (ceiling opening).

- Make A long more versatile and less exposed.

- Increase cover for Ts that come into A, raise a wall so CTs cannot snipe from the back of A into the T main corridor. Also vice versa, dont allow Ts to fall all the way back and still have vision onto the bomb when planted underneath the arch.

 

 

Next step once the layout stands will be making the many corridors feel less blant by adding life and a theme to them. I'm sure you have something in mind, but I'd suggest going for one color/texture scheme for the area around A and the corridors that lead to the bomb spot and a fitting but differentiated theme for B and the area infront of B main and the area around ct spawn to B.

 

I'm looking forward to further improvements. As you might be able to tell, I'm quite confident that this map can be a great one.

Thanks dude! working at the moment, update coming!

[Mvllsk]

 

- Change the door in B to a window and raise the hallway (add a staircase). That prevents CTs from rushing around and stopping Ts early from two angles. Still alow it to be boostable just to enable a surprise play by CTs. Also reduces the amount of easy afterplant positions for Ts.

 

Altough your idea is really good and you have a good point regarding the T, in the playtesting I really enjoyed the door. So maybe find a way to artificaly increase the timing / block the sightline and leave the door?

 

I'd bring back the door to A instead tbh

[DooM]

Changes as of 13/12/14:

 

http://imgur.com/a/IiRD8

[DooM]

Update overview:

 

Not sure about the changes to A site:

B site:

Mid:

[Gami]

Scribbled on the overview to convey my feedback, I need to playtest to give feedback on the bombsites but these suggestions might improve mids feel

 

I moved the bridge and stairs over a bit(made the door into the window room wider), and I think you should open the T side that leads to the bridge and make it a balcony.  added stairs for Ts in mid, made the other path to mid closer to b, and raised up the CT side of mid near A and made the CT hallway in mid wider

 

red is brushs, light blue is railing   sorryimbadwithmspaint

 

Edited December 29, 2014 by Gami

[DooM]

Scribbled on the overview to convey my feedback, I need to playtest to give feedback on the bombsites but these suggestions might improve mids feel

 

I moved the bridge and stairs over a bit(made the door into the window room wider), and I think you should open the T side that leads to the bridge and make it a balcony.  added stairs for Ts in mid, made the other path to mid closer to b, and raised up the CT side of mid near A and made the CT hallway in mid wider

 

red is brushs, light blue is railing   sorryimbadwithmspaint

 

Thanks for the feedback!