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Thrik

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Don't worry @LizardPL, I'm sure we can have a mature discussion about this without people getting all upset. I don't think this is the right thread for it but I don't feel it would be wise to start something separate. There's a reason why we don't have the political forum anymore. On the other hand, this thread is fitting after all since this is something that is going on in the life of Europeans. I did extensive research myself but I did not find any source claiming the father took the risk for dental care. If you can link to it, I would appreciate it. Every single source I've read claims that Turkey wouldn't give them the paperwork to go to family in Canada. As I understood, they wanted to go to Europe so it would be easier to get to Canada. Plus, unconfirmed, there was the threat that Turkey would send them back. Now, people can be truly evil. But even with that in mind, I have a hard time believing a father would risk his family for dental care. I just don't buy it.

With the utmost respect to our eastern European neighbors, I wouldn't want to stay there either. They are not welcome, the countries can't afford it and are even blocking them. So it's logical that they continue on to the West. Germany just happens to be one of the biggest and wealthiest countries there and they are welcoming refugees. So why not go there? It makes sense in every conceivable way. Now, I'm not saying all those refugees are innocent victims. I'm not naive. I also don't believe in migration as a solution. I'll post a video explaining my views on migration at the end of this post. 

Which leaves me at greed and corruption. I couldn't agree more. We can go on and on about why the middle east is in such terrible shape. Point fingers at colonialism and at the USA. We can blame Russia for their support of Assad and the UN for their inability to deal with the situation in Syria. Like I said, there's no end to that discussion. But that's not what saddens or frustrates me. I'm sad that those people are drowning. That they have to risk everything on the water just because it's safer than the land. That the drowned boy is a spitting image of my daughter (hair and skin color, the way he lies compares to how she sleeps and even in size). I'm frustrated that, unless there is a mass genocide, the UN doesn't act. That we spend billions on Greece but can't miss a couple of ships to patrol the Mediterranean. That this whole debate is about whodunit instead of how we are going to deal with it. That our southern and eastern neighbors are left with the bill for taking care of this problem. With the xenophobia and discrimination. But most of all I'm frustrated because there's not much I can do about it.  

 

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At the beginning I want to make sure that you guys don't get me wrong. Death of a child is a tragic thing. No matter whether you are a parent or not. I will not deny that there is a problem. People should help each other. The problem with politics and communities lays somewhere else. As you can see on most of the photograph 70%-80% of refugees are male between 20-38 y. You don't often see women's and children. I can tell you why. The whole trip to Europe from Syria is like hunger games. Only the strongest survive. 

I cannot confirm the numbers you are throwing around there, but it is true that the fathers often leave their families behind (either in their hometown or some place on the way that is a little more safe) and plan to get them to e.g. Germany once they have reached it AND their application for asylum has been approved. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove other than that the conditions in the countries these people are fleeing from must be horrendous. Otherwise they wouldn't risk everything and go on this hellish journey.

They still want to go to Germany. This is because whole Europe is giving them help with no restrictions and questions. The CEO of polish foundation that is helping refugees said that they can't verify anyone so they are forced to give help to everyone. This makes great opportunities for peoples that want only money. The father of drowned boy wanted to go to Europe because he heard that they are giving free healthcare and he wanted new teeth. There are a lot of relations from reporter on borders that refugees are very aggressive. Recent one is from Italy. Migrants tried to overturn a bus full of tourists. Another one is from Hungary. Refugees where throwing out water and food that Hungary government gave them. They were also aggressive.

Let me start by saying that the Dublin treaty is bad and the (wealthy, Northern) states should feel bad for imposing it on the rest of the EU. The states at the Southern and Eastern borders shouldn't be left alone with the refugee problem, but on the other hand I find it outrageous that states like Hungary, Slovenia, the Czech Republic and so on refuse to take in any (Muslim) refugees. You can't be part of the EU and only take the good without the bad. You can't reap the benefits and then point to Germany and Sweden when it comes to taking in refugees. The EU won't fail because of migration. It wil fail due to a lack of solidarity between the member states (if we let it happen). Speaking of which: what's currently happening in Hungary is a disgrace. If you consider yourself a Christian, how about not treating the poor at your doorstep like dirt and live by actual Christian values instead? When people are being crammed into camps and don't get proper help, of course they will start to be aggressive. You make it sound like these people are aggressive by nature and are out to hurt us. Please be careful with such insinuations. Also stuff like "Don't trust the media." and referring to so-called "specialists" without naming any sources is dangerous. It's part of the reason why dumbwits think it's their responsibility to defend the motherland by setting refugee homes on fire.

Sorry, I tend to get carried away and get too emotional in discussions on this topic. There is no doubt, that an intake of refugees at this magnitude is going to be a challenge. All these people will need to be integrated. But it is also an opportunity. I encourage everyone to look at the cold, hard facts. In 2012 foreigners paid more taxes to the German state than they cost it in social benefits. The German population is getting older on average and is shrinking. Job sectors like handcraft are desperately looking for people to train.

Also, I cannot speak about Poland, but by German constitution, every human has a right to apply for asylum here. It doesn't mean that they can stay here. The German government is about to declare countries like the Balkan states to safe origin countries, which will make the chances to be granted asylum close to zero and send them back home. Syria is a hellhole and we do right to grant these people refuge. That's my opinion, anyway. Peace. 

 

 

Edited by FrieChamp

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Well you guys are right in a lot of aspects. You FrieChamp are talking about solidarity between the states of EU. I though we are living here in democracy. If the most of those "states" dont want to take them then EU should not force everyone to do it and its the same if most of the ppl in their countries dont want them. But again like you said. You can't take only good things like money and refuse to be solidarity with other countries. I fully agree on this.

Regards!

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I'll be gearing up to move back to my home state of Southern California to attend Watts Atelier of the Arts in October. It's funny, all the shit I've been through these past two years is exactly what it took to make me realize what direction I want to take my life in, and the doors are simply opening up.  

I'm excited as fuck to put it lightly.

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@FrieChamp these fact are very specific of Germany, since it is a country with disastrous demographics, which is unique in that way.

For my part, I think that the issue will be solved with the responsibility of the entire human race, rather than Europe or Syria etc.

Greediness is fueled by economics principle which need people to search the largest wealth they can. That means for some refugees what LizardPl said, that means that wars in middle east will go on because it benefits to some people wealth, and so on. We're in an Era of individuals and we need to enter an Era of togetherness through a system which work for the common benefit, rather than individual benefits. This will be hard, not because people are ass holes,  some are but not everyone, but because are in general badly educated by these principles. What the society needs is the understanding that if you have to sacrifice your life , it'll be for the common good, and not in vain, and that you should sacrifice your privileges so that other can live better, thus reharmonizing the whole system.

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Last Friday the man that introduced me to computers, video games and pretty much got me on the game development path passed away. Rest in peace dad.

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Last Friday the man that introduced me to computers, video games and pretty much got me on the game development path passed away. Rest in peace dad.

So sorry to hear it Mazy :( Hope you're doing ok.

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So sorry to hear it Mazy :( Hope you're doing ok.

Thanks man. Yeah, he's been sick for a long time, he's had a brain tumor in over 7 years, so it's not exactly new. It didn't grow for most of that time, but it did start getting a whole lot worse about 6 months ago, so I've been mentally prepared for this for a while now, it's still really sad though.

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Last Friday the man that introduced me to computers, video games and pretty much got me on the game development path passed away. Rest in peace dad.

My condolences Mazy!

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Well you guys are right in a lot of aspects. You FrieChamp are talking about solidarity between the states of EU. I though we are living here in democracy. If the most of those "states" dont want to take them then EU should not force everyone to do it and its the same if most of the ppl in their countries dont want them. But again like you said. You can't take only good things like money and refuse to be solidarity with other countries. I fully agree on this.

Regards!

I don't believe the fact that people don't want to take in refugees. I believe people are being driven to this point by fearmongering politicians who are looking for the lowest common denominator so they can get more votes next election. By far the biggest culprit in this scenario is the wrongful portrayal of refugees by the media. Only roughly 250,000 refugees have come into mainland Europe, whereas most of syria's 17 million population has stayed behind in 'safer' areas in Syria as well as refugee camps on the Turkish borderland (4 million in Turkish refugee camps).

There is no invasion, there's a small city's worth of people who want to migrate into Europe because their current living conditions are abysmal. Between all the European countries, having an extra 250k people enter should be a breeze. Anything else is just propaganda and fearmongering. Don't buy into that shit and stay on top of the facts in these matters. Educating yourself on these things is free for now, so do it while they still let you.

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I don't believe the fact that people don't want to take in refugees. I believe people are being driven to this point by fearmongering politicians who are looking for the lowest common denominator so they can get more votes next election. By far the biggest culprit in this scenario is the wrongful portrayal of refugees by the media. Only roughly 250,000 refugees have come into mainland Europe, whereas most of syria's 17 million population has stayed behind in 'safer' areas in Syria as well as refugee camps on the Turkish borderland (4 million in Turkish refugee camps).

There is no invasion, there's a small city's worth of people who want to migrate into Europe because their current living conditions are abysmal. Between all the European countries, having an extra 250k people enter should be a breeze. Anything else is just propaganda and fearmongering. Don't buy into that shit and stay on top of the facts in these matters. Educating yourself on these things is free for now, so do it while they still let you.

You need to keep in mind that you need to multiply this number by 3 or 4 because those young mans have families that they want to bring to europe after they settled. Other thing is the middle east families have around 4 or 5 childs where european one have 0.7 in this times.
Argument that they want to bring the families after they settled is also bullshit because what kind of coward you must be to leave your woman and childs behind.

Edited by LizardPL

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